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group which infallible like our creator.
Don't over simplify things. You should be be protective of gods good name.
(kjv) Mt 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me
Lu 14:26-27 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
ELCA (a supposed Christian Church following Christ's teachings??? and that as pronounced by Martin Luther???... these people are spurious (meaning not genuine, authentic, or true; not from the claimed, pretended, or proper source; counterfeit) at best)
You would have to KNOW Christ and Luther to have any idea how evil they know the whole lot of them are. These sweet gospel preachers hand out band-aids to all poor UNREGENERATE sinners... speaking peace to them. I'd really truly like to know when the last time one of these spurious pastors delivered a sermon on the following:
John2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Who in their right mind could read all of the bible as ANN suggests and follow these lost blind leaders of the blind.
The verse you are probably searching for is where Jesus tells the man who has a beam in his eye to first remove that beam before complaining about the speck on the other man's eye.
Further, condemning a SIN is not condemning a PERSON. Maria said, "...you will hear [John Piper] preach the Bible, in which God condemns ALL **SIN**." [** emphases are mine]. If you say, "Murder is a sin," you are not condemning every person who happened to commit a murder. You are merely agreeing with what God Himself has said!
In 1 Cor 5, Paul makes it clear that Christians have no business judging unbelievers, that is the Lord's job. However, in the same chapter, Paul also makes it clear that Christians ARE to judge fellow believers, and the Lord Himself, as well as his Apostles in various places in the NT, set forth the procedures to do so.
We all do fall short of God's glory. Jesus is the ONLY bridge to salvation, for only He paid the infinite price for our infinite sin. Jesus says, "If you love me, keep my commandments." We are commanded to adjudge sin in other believers in Matthew 18, 1 Cor 5, Galatians 6 and elsewhere.
However,humbled4god, you must remember to not overlook the plank in your own eye when trying to get the speck out of someone else's eye. Don't attack other's sin to diminish your own sin. However, I do agree that we are to call sin what it is when we see it and stand for truth and justice, but we are called to do so in grace.
Now, do I keep all of His Commandments? As best as I can by His Grace and power (John 15:5), I try. Am I successful all of the time? Sadly, no, and I frequently feel as if I am not remotely close to doing so. "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8. That said, the next verse is equally important: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9.
What....that verse isn't even related.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 2Timothy 3v.16.
Anyway you're condemning me for condemning homosexuality.
How could we desire anything else? How is it even possible for an individual who is assured of their Salvation to not run like their pants were on fire to share the Good News and Joy of Salvation by Grace with every other human being possible? Look at the person who shares your bed and home. Can you live in peace knowing that she or he was not saved as you? What about your mom and dad, sister, brother, and other relatives? What about your friends? What about even the person sitting across from you on the bus? Is it not by the greatest of self-restraint that any of us manages to not shout out in any crowded venue that this life is but a shadow of the life to come? How can we not long to share God's Word and Grace with every human being we can? That is what Scripture requires of us and what our great Joy in God should make us want to do.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
Praise Him all creatures here below.
Praise Him above ye Heavenly Host.
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
And God bless John Piper.
You were saying?
The ELCA has just voted to allow people who are practicing, and not denouncing or repenting, homosexuality to be leaders of their churches. They did not vote whether or not to allow homosexuals into the church or into the faith.
Any church, regardless of denomination, should not allow anyone who is stuck in a sin and not repenting to be a leader. There may be more greed in a church than anyone would ever want to admit, but that's that way life is.
We are all human, we all sin, no one is perfect, but a leader, the head of a church, should be striving so hard to be like Jesus. They should be repenting constantly of every single sin, no matter how big or small our culture thinks it to be. We should all be doing this the same, however church leaders are held to a higher standard, they will be judged as a leader.
I pray for those who will be homosexual leaders in the ELCA because they are living in sin and not turning from it. They are unrepentant and unrighteous and according to God's word they will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. It's plain and simple. And no one is making a judgment - it's in black and white - it's a truth from God.
The question is whether or not we're honestly repentant about it.
No sin is to be minimized. Justifying or covering one does not justify the other.
Practicing, unrepentant sinners of any stripe have no business in church leadership.
I don't believe your point is entirely off the mark with regard to American Christendom. I also find certain trends of conspicuous consumption grating (e.g., the prevalence of the behemoth SUV). However, I recognize that it is for someone else to decide whether they need it and that it is easy for me or anyone else to sin in judging such matters. >>Covetousness<< is a serious sin which can manifest itself in a judgmental attitude toward others' wealth as well as in inordinate acquisition of wealth. (Although I wouldn’t want a behemoth SUV anyway. Sour grapes!) It’s also a sin to which politicians eagerly pander all the time, as in the resentment of tax breaks going to the people who pay most of the taxes, i.e. “the rich.“
I write this as a person whose income has barely cracked $40K (and that by working more than one job). I'm not by any means beyond the scope of admonitions about greed and covetousness, but I'm not one of the McMansion-dwellers you refer to either.
Also, as for what sin is "more destructive," I think it is fair to see our culture's increasing acceptance of homosexuality as part of the overall decline in sexual mores. It matters what the truth is regarding questions of sexual ethics. An unmarried couple who have an understanding at some level of the sinfulness of homosexuality, yet see society increasingly accepting it, are going to feel that much more at liberty to have casual sex as they see that fewer and fewer people care about upholding standards. The continued relativization of sexual norms, and of the definition of marriage and the family, weakens societal protections for young women and for children. Encouraging sin is destructive to those encouraged to sin and to others affected by the sin.
It is actually the poor (which include myself) who struggle more often with coveteousness than the rich. It is not greed to have more than you need. In fact, Everyone has more than they need. The point is what attitude you carry towards what you have.
Even if greed is an issue, it has absolutely nothing to do with this page. You err significantly if you think that Christians ought only to conquer greed and not homosexuality. They are both heinous in God's sight.
Judging is frequently misunderstood. Discerment is commanded. If you cannot discern that homosexuality is wrong, I do not know how your mind can be sound enough to accept anything by faith.
Yet, Don Bromley. From viewing your Twitter post you seem to be associated with the Emergent leaders, as Brian McLaren. This leads me to worry, regarding the heart of your post. Your comments here seem to be echos of most university campuses, denouncing materialism and consumerism and further fueled by the Emergents fondness of monastic traditions. Possibly many of us stand here, wrongly accused, because you've yet to follow logically that ALL who have money, are not of necessity lovers of money. For never let it be mistaken, that even the poorest of men can be greedy, and cast off as a covetous wretch.
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward." St Matthew 10.32-42
As we receive the righteous* LGBT Christian, we receive Christ.
* one whose life is characterised by the life of holiness Jesus showed us
But, it seems as though people did not read the above portion of the article where Piper, falls in line with the rest of scripture when he says that:
2. The church has always embraced those who forsake sexual sin but who still struggle with homosexual desires, rejoicing with them that all our fallen, sinful, disordered lives (all of us, no exceptions) are forgiven if we turn to Christ in faith.
Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)
Piper notes that all sin is wrong. we are not saying that homosexuality is any more or less of a sin than the rest. We're saying that you cannot actively be engaged in a specific sinful lifestyle and hold a position of leadership. This would also apply to a thief, a killer, a liar, a heterosexually promiscuous pastor, and the list goes on and on. To be engaged in a lifestyle is to not acknowledge that you are in sin, and is by default unrepentant.
Really though, pretty much it's those three verses. The practice of homosexuality during that time in history was very prevalent. If it were truly a problem, it sure would make sense to make it a little more clear, or touch on it as often as other sins.
Could you point to a place that says marriage is between a man and a woman? I sure haven't seen one. There certainly are several examples of man and woman being married in the bible. I will give you that I don't know of any examples of gay marriage in the bible. Some say that the Council of Nicea destroyed examples...but then we get into my own problems with accepting the bible as modified by Constantine's council, and if Paul knew that would happen when he wrote that all scripture is God breathed.
I really would like to go further, but it seems a waste. Those that disagree with me will likely not be willing to listen. They will continue with the standard Christian ignorance, maybe regurgitating the sermon of some preacher they didn't really understand. In re-reading my post, I already assume that the 1st rebuttle is going to be about my statement about Nicea, even though that's entirely my own personal thing and not a part of my argument (since it can't be proved).
John Piper is opposed to things that defame and demean the Glory of God and Christ, things like turning a blind eye to sin and not warning others of the wrath to come or the God prescribed cure which is faith in Christ and repentance (turning away) of sin for eternal life. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23
I believe you failed to miss the point of the article, but rather took a personal look at the article rather than what scripture has to say. The point is that when people do not repent and trust in the Lord there are eternal consequences. This is true whether you are in a homosexual relationship, a thief, drunkard, etc. If I do not repent and trust that the Lord will work in my life and change me (since I can't do it on my own) than I will have to suffer the consequence. What is the point of having Jesus in my life if I keep doing what I know is wrong, but say, "It's okay, Jesus died for me". He did die for me but it does not give me a free pass...regardless of the sin we commit.
May God's grace and peace dwell with you!
Don's point is valid - we need to apply all of Scripture and not just what fits our situation/events. The tornado may have a number of providential reasons for its existance...but unless we are Jesus, we are just not going to know why here, why now, etc. SO why would we start pointing to this event or that event and say "God is telling us X" - that's riduculous.
Does God want them to repent or not?
Events like these are supposed to be a call to repent in general (among the other things they accomplish), so if God is calling to repentence the people who need to repent, then why does it become a problem when John Piper says to a church that needs to repent that this is another warning for them to repent.
I know that sentence was terrible. Let's put it this way. Jesus taught that disasters should remind the unrepentant to repent in general (among other things that are accomplished). Why does it become a problem when John Piper says these specific sinners need to repent of these specific sins. Again, the ELCA conference, having seen the tornado, is certainly part of the general call to repentence. John Piper looks at scripture and sees that a major topic of their conference is setting their denomination into deeper apostacy, why shouldn't he be able to say: "ELCA, God is calling you to repent of your unbiblical view of homosexuality."
Frankly, the ELCA needs the fear of God. They have walked a long road of apostacy to get to the place they are at, and they need more than a no vote on Friday to right the ship.
Strange that if this happened to, say, a certain Baptist church that it would be interpreted as something different no? Then it would likely be the Devil doing it not God. So this is not about God, but about what you need to believe about God to support your own ideology. That's a fancy way of saying idolatry isn't it.
God disciplines those who he loves. All of us deserve much much worse than what was allowed to happen in MN..
Good point at the end though. Is it a blessing, or a curse? Did God protect the church from the tornado, or give them a warning? If it was Piper's church, would it have been interpreted differently?
To that last question - maybe yes, maybe no. Who can understand the ways God works? What we can do, however, is note that all natural disasters send two messages from the Lord - "REPENT!" and "you are loved".
Of course I would like the ELCA to change course...and we can pray that they do - or at least those with "ears to hear" will do so as individual congregations. What troubles me is reflected in your comment, " Jesus taught that disasters should remind the unrepentant to repent in general..." That's exactly the point - in GENERAL. We don't have names, orgs, churches, etc. pointed out. We have a VERY GENERAL comment Jesus made to a group of people and then WE/John/modern prophets apply it SPECIFICALLY to ONE GROUP on ONE DAY in ONE PLACE....but it applies much more generally to many, many more people. Singling out the ELCA's convention is way too narrow. Maybe God used that storm to turn a businessman away from an extra-martial affair yesterday afternoon, maybe he broke up a drug deal, maybe he helped a struggling business get a new roof....I could go on ad-nausea.
Let's pray that the ELCA changes course and that we would really love our neighbors so much, that we would GIVE more of our lives to them...all around the world. Kind of like God so loved the world that he GAVE...
Peace.
That is the amazing thing about any event. That God could have used the tornado to keep the businessman from having an affair, AND to break up a drug deal, AND to help a struggling business, AND to warn us all of the dangers of living in unrepentant sins (whatever those may be), AND ..., AND..., etc. All are legitimate to point out. That being said, homosexuality is the issue before right now. Should we harp on it, at the expense of another issue? NO! But we must not ignore it either.
Thank you for bringing this blog and the ensuing comments to my attention. It reminded me why I never blog, tweet, or otherwise engage in the slow suicide of Western Civilization (for those of you in Seattle, that's the same civilization that brought you penecilan, the ipod, and the right to vote).
And Don, give it a rest. In the 1 year plus I attended the church where you serve as one of the ministers, I don't ever remember hearing a sermon about people who live in a 5,000+ sq foot McMansion and own 3 cars. I do remember hearing a lot of sermons about the sin of destroying God's creation -- exactly the kind of sin Christians in Ann Arbor are not likely to struggle with.
Thanks for drawing this post to my attention. It, and the endless responses, reminded me why I never blog, tweet, or otherwise engage in the slow suicide of Western Civilization (for those of you in Seattle, that's the same civilization that brought you penicilin, the ipod, and the right to vote).
And Don, give it a rest. In the 1 year plus that I attended the church where you serve as one of the ministers, I don't ever remember hearing a sermon about people who live in 5,000+ square foot McMansions and own 3 cars, although Ann Arbor Vineyard is not exactly situated in the middle of skid row. I do recall plenty of sermons against the sins of destroying God's good creation, precisely the kind of transgression Ann Arbor Christians are not likely to struggle with.
There is a distinct difference between HAVING money and LOVING money. If, for example, I am blessed with a large income, and I use it to bless others, that is fine. You mistakenly equate GREED and WEALTH. This argument is in and of itself a sin, if it is driven by ENVY, which is covetousness. It is the selfsame argument used by the communists / socialists to forcibly transfer wealth from the affluent to the poor.
Not every wealthy man is greedy. Philemon is wealthy enough to have a slave, yet Paul does not write him harshly to demand that he release Onesimus and then impoverish himself and give his estate away. Why not? Perhaps Philemon was wealthy but not greedy.
When Zacchaeus, a greedy tax collector, repented, he offered **half** of his possessions to the poor plus a quadruple restitution tho any whom he had previously swindled. Did Jesus say that he was only halfway to his salvation? No! Our Lord, I imagine with a smile on His face, said "Today, salvation has come to this house!" Imagine the uncontrollable joy of having your salvation confirmed publicly by Jesus Himself!
As to homosexuals sinning, Romans 1:24-29 speaks directly of man and women who lust after their own genders, a consequence of idolatry and selfishness, and the punishment of being given over to the "depraved mind" as a consequence.
It is the Lord who does not tolerate homosexual behavior. He is pure and Good and Holy. His judgments are just, no matter if people think otherwise. We are to trust in the Lord with all our hearts and not lean upon our own understanding. So while your understanding may be to read out of the Bible the direct commandments in the Torah, and the pronouncements of the Apostles in support of continuing those commandments, your understanding does not overrule the Lord's command.
It is OK for Christians to declare homosexual desires and behaviors to be sinful; for the Christians merely echo the message that the Lord Himself wrote into the Bible.
Look, either the Bible is all true or all false. "God cannot lie" is in the Word. You cannot pick out the parts of the Bible you like to follow, plug your ears, and chant "la la la la" and ignore the parts that prick your heart. In fact, you are much better off to **concentrate** on the heart-pricking parts as you encounter them, because the Holy Spirit is pricking your heart for a Good and Holy reason.
Again, mere possession does not indicate greed. The Lord can bestow wealth as He sees fit. Your argument sounds like that of Judas, when he condemned Mary for anointing Jesus with expensive myrrh. The poor will always be with us. Wealthy people have the ability to grow their resources and give more often and in larger amounts. That does not constitute greed.
"You cannot pick out the parts of the Bible you like to follow, plug your ears, and chant "la la la la" and ignore the parts that prick your heart."
Check yourself on this one. This is what all christians have been doing since it was made up. Have someone read these and tell me if you "plug your ears":
Deut. 28:56-57
II Kings 6:29
Lev. 20:27
Matt. 19:12
II Kings 5:27
Isaiah 3:16-17
I Cor. 14:34-35
I Tim. 2:11-12
II Sam. 12:11
I Cor. 1:27
I Cor. 1:19
II Sam. 13:1-22
I Sam. 6:19
Matt. 27:35
II Kings 21:6
Luke 23:29
Just a few examples of the barbaric things written by 1st century bigots in order to control the majority of society.
As you can tell, I and a lot of others have no use for your false 'guy in the sky' eliefs - especially they're used to dictate how others should live thier live based on your flimsy, 2000 yr old book.
Don,
For the sake of argument I will assume that it is true when you say there are greedy people in Piper's church. I haven't, however, heard Piper actively condone greediness with a public statement. Remember, the article says that the ELCA was proposing a statement about homosexuality (I assume you agree that homosexual acts are sinful, but I could be wrong?).
I agree with Jugger that the main point of the article is to point out that nobody should actively condone homosexuality in their statements, and therefore someone should repent if this is their position.
Regardless of whether or not we interpret the weather as an act of God or not, I don't think we should ever shy away from standing up for biblical truth. If Piper's church has an issue with greed then you could be right to call them out on it, but even so, do you have a problem with the ELCA being called to repentance for holding a position that is unbiblical?
I think it's crazy that you are proclaiming you know exactly how God thinks. Look at you guys. "Yeah well, THIS is a worse sin than THAT!" Well then, I guess we shouldn't talk about any sins at all, then? It's so off topic. If someone were to tell me, "Hey, you're sinning by doing this... see here, God states it right here," I'd listen! I don't understand how the scripture can be so IGNORED, when it is what our belief is based on... because it's the story of what happened, of what was said, of what JESUS and GOD said.
We are all imperfect, but we can continue to stand up for what Jesus taught, and we can continue to strive to live has He would have wanted us to... if a person claims to be without sin, then that's another story... but I still don't understand why one theory of what God is doing has anything to do with a different sin, that may, or may not, be an issue.
While this will almost always be a nature vs. nurture argument, it's the BEHAVIOR that is the sin... not the person. So whoever above said that this involved condemning people, that's not even what it's about (even though it's what so many make it to be). Do you really define who you are by your sexual preference? You are children of God... you are made to worship God, and to serve Him, to serve others, to glorify Him, to share about his Love (and Jesus' sacrifice)....to be LOVED by Him, in all our imperfections and sins, when we admit our sins and choose to allow God to use us. Any selfish desires and temptations that get in the way (even in this discussion-- the desire we all have to be RIGHT), are only that-- selfish desires that get in the way of what we are here for. If we are not doing that, then what is our purpose? God help us if we no longer have any control over our own behaviors, and we start to say it's all in our genes. My theology holds that we still have free will. (This is not to say that it's right or wrong--this is my belief).
That being said, I don't rule out that God could have had a say in where the tornado hit... or that He allowed it to happen. His reasoning, though, may be different than we all guess it to be. What if God allowed this to happen merely so that the discussion would start, so that one person in the church would say one thing that would change the life of one other person, for the better... It could be about a single person, or a few people. Or it could be about 230 different things...
I am not saying Piper means that this is the ONLY reason, but it seems that way only based on his message.... I think it would have been an even more effective sermon if it was discussed about why God allows things to happen... for 230 different reasons (although I'm' not positive that goes along with his theology).
Don't you people understand that Satan wants to divide the church? (Meaning, THE CHURCH-- all of us as Christians in this world). Satan will do whatever possible to do this... He will find the grayest of areas, and muddle it even more. .. to divide friends and family, and to detract people from God... through his lies and deceit.
And so, I encourage all of you to take God seriously, and His Word... and lean not on your own understanding.
In no uncertain terms, Piper has said on multiple occasions that people who live as you've described are completely wasting their lives. That message was aimed at people who claim to be Christians.
If you're concern here is that as a culture, Christians are hypocrites and complain too much about the sins of nonbelievers while ignoring their own, I'd say your feelings are justified and your assessment is fair.
However, that's not what's going on here. This is not a condemnation of unbelievers but a charge from a pastor to a group of pastors to NOT be hypocritical. You see Lutherans have always held to the authority of scripture, and to fold on this just to appease their critics would be every bit as hypocritical as a believer who selfishly hoards their wealth.
(Oh, and please do forgive me for judging, but that wasn't actually a pun.)
God Bless.
What exactly is your point and how is it relevant to the point that Piper has raised?
LOL what a silly statement Don... REALLY... your statement is ridiculous.
I just wanted to comment on greed also.
I just picked up _Don't Waste Your Life_ for the first time, and I am about halfway through it. Dr. Piper quite explicitly gets across the message that serving God involves ditching the ideas of "comfort", "security" that we Americans glean from materialism. You both have something in common calling Christians out on greed and materialism. Sinful, yes indeed.
But what do you think about homosexuality being a sin?
By the way, owning a laptop, iPhone, digital camera or other device to twitter by is also a luxury. There are people starving on the other side of the world. There are also people being misguided by "well-meaning" preachers, pastors and theologians to think that homosexuality is not regarded as a serious abomination before God. And I believe the Bible has something to also say on that matter concerning those in teaching positions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FAKZpp7nUM
So, in regards to this article -great job. Look at is as news- if it was about a tornado that went through a million dollar neighborhood -maybe we would think twice about posting all of our "positive" comments -like I said, maybe because we are a little convicted? The point to all of this, is that we should constantly seek the face of God - CONSTANTLY. No just when it suits us. So what, you're not gay, or you're not lutheran? SO, you all of a sudden don't sin, or get sucked in to worldly desires -better rethink yourself.
For more on this check out some sermons David Platt preached back in December 08 on tough words from Christ. He preaches on wealth and the rich young ruler and they offer so much great perspective. There are about 4-5 of them and they are each about an hour long. Great stuff from another great man of God.
And just in case you are wondering... I don't type this while sitting comfortably in a McMansion. I type on a computer that was given to me, in a house I live in with a bunch of friends, and don't drive a car anymore because my 96 explorer blew a transmission, fuel pump, and computer. Pray that I will be able to find a cheap car soon so I can drive to work, church, etc.
Look, unless we are naturalists, unless we deny the validity of the Word of God, then we must acknowledge that the God who brought about disasters as a warning to His still exists, is still active, and still hates sin.
You're looking pretty deeply at an atmospheric phenomenon that occurs DAILY around the world. When someone's house is in the way, it's a tragedy. When no one is in the way and it's filmed, it makes the local news as a "miracle". When no one sees it, it goes unnoticed.
QED. Stop waving your arms and making things up to force the world into your personal views.
Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? (Mark 4:41)
really... you made that argument?
Actually, tornadoes hardly exist in the rest of the world except for in the U.S.
There have been things in my life that I believe God led me to in order to break me. Others have simply been natural.
Take one "unusual" natural disaster (really aren't all natural disasters unusual in that they don't occur daily?) and simply apply toward the people with which you disagree.
Who do you think that you are? THE man of God? What does this even mean? At least the Lutherans are trying to allow the community to determine how far the love of God stretches. This sort of single person interpretation leaves a stench on all of Christianity.
May we all watch the weather daily for more messages from God.
*Maybe a prophet should interpret that the tornado shows us that we need better weather predicting capabilities.*
Hell is very real.
The scriptures were given to us (miraculously) for our benefit such that they would point toward Christ and lead us in knowledge of Him, and in God's ways I, like the other poster, do wish for your best, and that is to come to know Christ intimately. Not so we are right, but so you find what we have found, peace with God and the hope of glory through salvation in His Son, and ultimately eternal life with God.
And that's the question - are you convinced enough in where you stand to discount the possibility of an eternity with God surrounded by His love. Even on this earth you can experience a real and personal relationship with Him which until you experience it it beyond a human's understanding. No amount of theology will get you to this place and nothing will keep you out of it once you're there apart from your own will. But you gotta seek it.
Firstly it is right for Christians to be held accountable for the lives that we lead. I'm not sure it is a non-believer's place to sit in judgment of a believer for a non-believer has not partaken of the same vow or commitment to God, just as we are not to judge unbelievers for they are God's to judge - we should purely seek to lead them to Him through love and truth. ps. stoning is an OT (old testament and law-based) practice, not a NT practice (grace-based).
What issue are we wrong on here? Homosexuality. The same story is told consistently through the Bible, of God's design being for man and woman, and has very clear scriptures that state (ie 1 Cor 5) that homosexuality is a sin, and the practice thereof will keep a person out of the Kingdom of God.
But you are right that there is widespread adultery through the church of god. However the same 'rules' apply to them - they will not enter into the promises of God - and yes, the church should be up in arms about the greed, the lust and sexual immorality that is prevalent through Western Christianity, particularly in America. God's name is being trampled by the very people he has called as witnesses of His goodness and mercy. This is the sad fact and the reason why American Christianity is a shadow of what it should be, and the very reason why people like Dr John Piper are speaking out on issues concerning the apostacy and errors of the church. Others are Dr Michael Brown http://www.askdrbrown.com, Bill Meuhlengerg (in Australia) http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/
But that doesn't change what or who God is and what he wants for us. Just because his name and word have been mistreated and dragged through the mud doesn't change Him, for He is the same always.
Now your reference to slavery. It is not identified as a sin or not, just as money is not a sin, it is the use thereof. Forcing people into slavery is obviously a matter of greed and selfishness and thus a sin. This has little to do with homosexuality and there is no case for a direct analogy in either direction - two different issues. Homosexuality is sexual immorality which is clearly dealt with in the Bible as being a gross sin and against God's commands. God made it clear that he wanted to 'set the captives free' but it was a spiritual freedom he was talking about, and homosexuality is something that binds you in the captivity of lust and carnal desires, just as adultery and other sexual immorality is destructive and against God's will.
But your point stands, and is a very good one. We are to obey all of His word, not just the parts that we feel like obeying. If only more people who *professed* to be Christians lived like that.
In order to make your point, please cite John Piper attributing a disaster that struck those with whom he did not disagree to not be ordained of God. I doubt that you will find such a citation, because as a stone-cold Calvinist, John Piper surely acknowledges the sovereignty of God, even over things that mankind takes to be disasters.
They call us unloving. But they do not see their path leading to a pit, from which we hope to snatch them before its to late. What is more loving: to let them go on without a word of pleading, or to beg that they reconsider? They call us hypocrits. But they have not walked with us. They are not flies on the wall, watching daily as Christ continues to nurture His poisoned bride, purifying her for the glorious day of their union. They call us arrogant. But we are, as Don Carson says, "only poor beggars, telling other poor beggars where there is bread."
So, if God is saying this to us, Will we hear our hearts (Jer 17:9), or hear His Heart, full of wrath against this sin?
in context - whatever.
"At least the Lutherans are trying to allow the community to determine how far the love of God stretches."
Neither one person, nor a community, nor all 6+ billion people on the planet determine what is or is not sin in the eyes of God. ONLY God's Word determines that.
You state this in terms of "at least" as if it is a good thing. It is, in fact, the opposite. How dare they take it into their own hands to determine "how far the love of God stretches"?! The truth is that God's grace and His love shown by the death of Christ on the cross cover the sins of all mankind; but an unrepentant sinner refuses this grace, making himself or herself "god" and doing what is right in his or her own eyes. Such a person looks forward only to wrath and eternal punishment. May God have mercy on them and yet bring them to true repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, Our Lord.
-Ray
I do find Mr. Piper to be condescending some times. But then, he is a man like all of us. He's a good teacher, but like each of us he has his faults.
Though I find flaws in Mr. Piper, he is striving himself and pushing his church body toward God honoring behavior. The lutheran church on the other hand is sprinting in the opposite direction. I would flee any lutheran church had I been attending one. The Word of God directly warns us of such leaders.
FACT: God clearly uses people to teach the Body in truth through the administering of
various gifts. John Piper clearly has been given the gifts of teaching & wisdom.
He isn't claiming to be on God's level, but rather he is being a faithful steward of
his gifts.
FACT: God uses people to teach His truth.
So how can anyone justfiy slamming this down John Piper's face? The absurb collection of comments on this blog reveal the overwhelming lack of humility in this audience.
It was an afternoon for the ages today in Minneapolis, but there was no rejoicing in heaven. God allowed a 90-year-old metal steeple to be damaged by a tornado at a Lutheran church across the street from the ELCA Churchwide Assembly. A few hours later, man removed a sexual prohibition that had stood firm in the Lutheran church for 500 years and in the Bible for thousands of years.
It was no accident that exactly 2/3 of the voting members (676 people) voted to adopt the ELCA social statement on human sexuality today. It would not have been adopted if just ONE of these 676 voters had voted against it. Now each of these 676 people can know for sure that he or she is indeed responsible for adopting this statement that changes the rules regarding sexual sin and sexual behavior. This was carried out brazenly in spite of God's clear instructions on the matter: "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." (1 Cor. 6:18)
From the standpoint of these 676 voters, they just set the captives free. From the standpoint of Scripture, each of these voters is now responsible for inviting young people and church workers into sexual sin and bondage to spiritual strongholds. Each of them must now be prepared to explain this monumental vote to Jesus when they stand face to face with Him one day. They can each take much credit from the world today because each individual vote truly sealed the deal. They will receive no such credit from our Lord for the souls that will now be led into sexual bondage and slavery to sin.
Some voting members spoke at the microphone about the “fear” that has existed at the assembly. God’s Word speaks of a necessary kind of fear: “To fear the Lord is to hate evil.” (Proverbs 8:13) In other words, to fear the Lord is to hate gossip. To fear the Lord is to hate prejudice. To fear the Lord is to hate injustice. To fear the Lord is to hate greed. To fear the Lord is to hate homosexual behavior. To fear the Lord is to hate adultery. To fear the Lord is to hate lust. To fear the Lord is to hate lying, etc.
Where was the fear of the Lord in the hearts of the 676 people who decided that God has been wrong all these years to call homosexual behavior sinful? Why pick just one sin and call it good when God calls it evil? The tornado was God's last-ditch effort to wake them up before they brought doom upon themselves and others. Their minds were closed to God's warning this afternoon and God allowed them to choose evil, but He made sure that each of them would know that their individual vote was what pushed this evil over the edge and made it officially acceptable in their denomination.
Pastor Dan Delzell
Wellspring Lutheran Church (LCMC)
Papillion, Nebraska
www.wellspringlutheran.org
I think you may be reading too much into "last ditch." How are we in "big trouble" if God continues to reach out to us with His Law and His Gospel the way He was reaching out to those at the assembly through His Word? If you believe that God actually allowed the tornado to happen, then what is the bigger sin - to reject His clear Word....or to miss a "last ditch" sign and last chance to turn from your intended sin by seeing the tornado as something God allowed?....again brother, I wouldn't read too much into those two words unless you are focusing heavily upon God's justice and His grace. I fail to see how God giving people more "signs" is in any way putting all of us in "big trouble." Does that make more sense to you brother?
God ordains that some fallible humans explain His infallible Word to other fallible humans. Neh, 8:7-8.
I tend to like Piper, but I think this is one post that was ill thought out.
For Blake and dwight, what's the point? Would you also like to list 1,000 other disasters and have Piper explain all of them? Maybe Union was hit by a tornado because someone up top is engaged in some serious sin. Maybe it was the Devil.
Piper is not claiming to be a prophet, as you would like him to claim so you can bring him down. He is simply comparing two stories (the meeting and a rather out-of-place storm), then drawing a conclusion based on how he understands God. He could be wrong, even he would say that.
But the point still stands... God is saying REPENT! And Him approaching us with that message is an extreme example of grace.
With the ELCA. There is a clear and open rejection of God's truth in the picture. The view of God's holiness that they received should cause them to humble themselves and repent in addition to gaining an experiential understanding of God's holiness (and sufficiency). Of course, if they dismiss the event, then they get none the above.
but it is worth noting that He did not send the tornado to a group of homosexuals.
Rather He sent it to a group of HIS people set to condone/endorse homosexual activity
within the church leadership.
Big difference.
I very much enjoyed this post, it is a reminder to me as well how serious God takes sin.
As a believer who struggles with being attracted to the same gender, I appreciate you also pointing out that the church has always embraced those who forsake sexual sin, even those who still wrestle with homosexual desires. At times I feel like many churches do not embrace repentant homosexuals, not ones who still struggle with those desires. It is both a reminder to those of us who do still struggle, to keep fighting, and realize that their are churches that do embrace with the love of Christ. It is a reminder to those who don't struggle to love the repentant sinner as Christ does, and encourage one another day after day, that non of us be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
I hope for all of our sakes that the church can walk the line of lovingly calling sinners to repent, but yet being loving and discerning enough to extend grace to repentant sinners who stumble along the way.
You all are acting nasty b/c you want to know why God would do this here and not other places, then saying, "Are you God to tell us this is from God?" No, Piper isn't and neither am I. However, such actions ARE in keeping with God's righteous character. Why He does this here and not all the time is b/c He is gracious. WHY God did this in this instance and not, say, when the ECUSA was proclaiming its recent rounds of blasphemies is something only God knows. If John was to try and answer the WHY of "WHY here and not other places" then he would be out of line. But it is easy to see that this WAS a warning sign from God.
And before you start saying, "Are you God that you can tell us this?", no I am not. But who are YOU, oh man, who answers back to God and says, "Oh, God couldn't have done this. He doesn't do it elsewhere to worse." Well, guess what folks:
Psalm 115:3, "Our God is in the heavens; He does all that he pleases."
May the ELCA recognize the sovereign hand of Almighty God in what has happened and may it cause them to remember just who they are attempting to mock by hating their fellow men so much as to not just fail to warn them about their sinful acts but encourage them in them too. This is pure hatred against fellow man that the ELCA is attempting to do. May be tremble and shake in the fear of the Lord, and may they then come to true and lasting repentance. God has loved them enough to send a strong warning. May they not despise Him by ignoring it or lambasting those who are bold enough to call it what it is.
The good Mr. Piper would no doubt appreciate this interpretation, as it is equivalent to his referencing the story in the fourth chapter of Mark. [Go check it out for yourself]. It is sadly ironic that the only instance he could find of Christ controlling the weather was from a story in which the Lord CALMS the storms, which are occurring NATURALLY and, it would seem, quite against his will. Either that, or we are to believe that God was pulling one over on the disciples by raising and then subsequently subduing a storm, just to make a scene.
These zealots count on us taking them at their word when they interpret what they claim is in the infallible word of the Lord.
Nahum 1:3
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power;
the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet.
In fact, the great and loving heart of God is marvelously revealed in these words,
"If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you..." Prov. 1:23
yet go on to speak of whirlwinds...
Sad. This is so sad. Who are you, John Piper, to make a statement like this? Who are you to determine God's intervention in our world?
God will let hundreds of thousands people die this week due to lack of clean water, food and medicine. He won't intervene on their behalf. He won't do something about that. But God will send a tornado to give a "gentle but firm warning" to the Lutherans?
What a sick view of God you perpetuate.
If you look at how judgment is attacking America. 9-11 blasted the economy. Hurricane Katrina blasted the economy. On top of that, our own sins have found us out. We've covetously spent more money than we had as a nation. God is judging the wealthy, and we will all be held accountable for what they did with God's money on judgment day as well.
(Note: it is sad that it took a huge disaster like the Tsunami to move the wealthy of the world to help out these people who we ought to be sharing with every day.)
BTW - God's work has to be viewed on an eternal perspective. This fallen world is just a dot, but eternity is a line springing out of that dot that goes on forever. People live and die every day. It's what they lived and died for that God cares about.
Wealth is not sinful; it is GREED that is sinful. How close do you think that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, who are arguably the two richest men in history, are to the Kingdom? Mr. Buffett is giving SUBSTANTIALLY ALL of his fortune to the Gates foundation to help combat disease and poverty in areas where other charities are not active. Mr. Gates has already endowed the foundation with enough money to make any other person the third richest person on Earth, and has publicly declared his intent to leave almost all of the rest of his money to said foundation. That is ~$120 BILLION to fight poverty.
Are these men to be judged at the Great White Throne more harshly than a guy with 1/2 million who never gave anything to help others? I am not a judge of the unbeliever (1 Cor. 5), so instead I pray that Mr. Buffet, Mr. Gates, and Mrs. Gates all meet up with salvation, so that their giving will be for the Lord, and the end result will be no judgment at all, and instead rewards from a very happy Lord Jesus.
Your view of who God is is sick, not Piper's. Well, unless the god that you are talking about is not the God of the bible - the God who is holy and just, almighty and awesome, the God who shuts up the heavens, brings pestilence and locusts, the God who causes us to continue to exist in this earth enjoying His grace even though unacknowledged, the God who sent His Son to die on the cross that we might have a chance to know Him and be forgiven of our arrogance - arrogance such as calling His actions "sick" and thinking He owes man something.
God does whatever pleases Him. If He willingly crushed His own Son for sins to be paid, what's the problem with Him letting people who don't acknowledge Him but willingly insult Him die in hunger and lack of medicine? NONE! Yet, FYI, His own children (read Christians, even pastors serving without salary at that undergo the same difficulties and calamities. I would like to believe you are just unaware of these situations because you live comfortably in this country called America.
I am a Christian. As, I assume, you would say that you are. I love Jesus, and his teachings, and his life, with all of my heart. I strive on as much of a moment-by-moment basis as I can to follow him, please him, and emulate him. I recognize that I can't do it by myself. I believe that grace covers the gap. I also know that people, like you, like me, of all denominations, and (for that matter) many religions are striving equally to discern what is the good and perfect will of God for their lives. Lutherans, Baptists, Assemblies of God, Presbyterian, Catholic, whatever label you may worship under, our leaders, and hopefully our people, have all humbly, earnestly, and wholeheartedly sought (and continue to seek) correct conviction and guidance about how to interpret (for that is what we all do) this word of God which has been translated into English for us here in English-speaking countries by people who ALSO were humbly seeking guidance about how to interpret the words of these Scriptures in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. We are all trying. And, I would suggest that it is arrogant for ANY of us (and this includes me) to suggest that our own interpretation of a scripture is right and that all of the other earnest seekers have it wrong. I will tell you, I disagree with you. And, I will not tell you you are wrong. I will tell you that this is YOUR conviction, and that mine is different. Paul says in the New Testament that he is all right with eating the meat that has been offered to idols, but that if another believer is not all right with it, he won't instruct him otherwise, because we all must follow our convictions. I also will not try to instruct you to not follow your convictions, but I would ask that you would take counsel from Paul and respect that other true and earnest believers have convictions which differ from yours and it neither makes them wrong, nor does it make them unbelievers. It simply means that we do not, any of us, truly see in that mirror face to face yet, and that we, in our dimness, are all trying to discern, and do not always agree. But, let us agree on this: Jesus' life and sacrifice are our hope, our plumbline, and our example. And, in love, and in humble, earnest effort to follow that same example, let us not build walls that judge each other and keep the Church (capital C, all of us, all denominations and opinions) from functioning as one body, together, and not in dissention.
Peace.
in all things,charity(love)." The rub comes when one say this is "essential" and the other says it is "non-essential." In Lutheran tradition a great deal of freedom
is given in matters of "adiaphora" (non-essentials). Does human sexuality
fall in that category. For some, yes, for others,no.
It is one thing as to what day of the week one wants to worship or what one eats, it is quite another to declare that God is quite okay with whatever
sexual practices that make us happy. Perhaps if we do not look at the
prohibition texts, in regards to homosexuality, but look at the permission texts
for monogamous opposite-sex relationships, such as in Ephesians 5, we might
be able to reach a clearer understanding of God's will on the matter.
Regards,
Don
Having listened to many perspectives, I can say that, even in looking at the texts related to healthy monogamous relationships, an alternate perspective is that the Biblical discussions focus on the sinfulness of unhealthy, unloving, lewd, lascivious, unfaithful, non-monogamous relations. That their point is about not disrespecting others, or acting selfishly and unlovingly.
What we, in our current day, are dealing with is the idea that homosexual relationships can, and do, run the spectrum of healthy, loving, monogamous, faithful, faith-filled ones to lewd, lascivious, unloving, unhealthy, unfaithful ones -- just as heterosexual relationships can, and do, run that same spectrum.
I understand that another perspective is that homosexual relationships are by nature all unhealthy; and, you're right, this is a matter of interpretation. All I can say is, while I don't know the answer to these questions, and I can't possibly begin to be sure of anything until I'm done with this life, I have come to the place in my heart where I am much more able to support and embrace a loving, monogamous, healthy, faithful, faith-filled homosexual relationship than I am to support a non-loving, unhealthy heterosexual one.
My personal impression based on how I see Jesus behave and speak is that, if presented with this question, He might simply say, "God is love," and leave it to us to figure out, as he so often did with his disciples. He made them work it out. And, in my own journey to "work it out", I have come to the place where I believe, if two people love each other in truth and action, be they straight or gay, in my heart I must leave room for the possibility that God would sanction that relationship, in a parallel way that, though the law said to not work on the Sabbath, Jesus counseled that it was more lawful to help the struggling animal (in support of loving, merciful behavior) than to obey the law and leave it there. (Please, now, don't make any correlations between homosexuals and the struggling animal!! That's not my point.) I guess I'm simply saying that even Jesus often looked deeper into the letter of the law than what was initially apparent, in the
spirit of love.
I know this is endlessly discussable. And, it's certainly not something I want to fight about. I'm just so tired of all of us in the church fighting at all.
Discussions, however, are a wonderful and important heritage, and I thank you, Don, for your thoughtful and respectful response!!
Peace, truly,
Norah
What can we do but fight when you drown us in theological-chicken-soup-for-the-soul.
Whether people persist in sexual immorality or greed or laziness or simply apathy, they will INDEED be sanctioned. The sanction levied will be a horror of eternal torment, the likes of which we can never imagine.
The concept of "eternal torment" is not to be found in the New Testament. I know you'll probably quote several verses back at me. And yes, I've heard them before. But if you'll return to reading the Bible through the eyes of a 1st century Jew, I'm sure your mind would be changed rather quickly.(For instance, immortality is tied to life in Christ. In the New Testament, there is no eternal life outside of Christ--only the second (and final) death.)
At let's leave the gooey "i think a healthy, loving, monogamous, faithful, faith-filled relationship is better than lewd, lascivious, unloving, unhealthy, unfaithful one even if it is homosexual" nonsense alone. This is wrong and unhelpful.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. Homosexuality is an evil, just as unfaithfulness, lewdness, adultery are evils as well. Turn from your sin, repent and be saved. That's the message of the Bible, and praise God that through Jesus Christ we have the opportunity to accept Him as Lord (as in we do as He says, not as we think or feel) and Saviour (ie. turn from our sin, repent and strive to walk in holiness, not cherry-picking the parts out of the Bible that we;re OK with).
literature. John Wesley, a Methodist I presume.
Jun_A, I feel bad for you. I'm sorry you've been brainwashed by this way of thinking. I never called God "sick." I called John Piper's worldview and Biblical perspective sick. I could use other words if you'd like: twisted, perverted, angry, etc. I am certainly not ill-informed of the suffering and pain world-wide. I center my life on making a difference in our world--here and now.
Anyway...
I can sum up the Bible not in phrases of power and wrath (like you did), but with these three words:
GOD
IS
LOVE
Yet to come to whatever one thinks may be "god" without coming to the Word of God...to the God of the Bible, is just as tragic, and deceptive:
John 17:14
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
Do you believe in a Sovereign God? If so, do you believe that He rebukes?
1-What does the phrase "Sovereign God" mean?
2-What does it mean for God to "rebuke?"
Thanks.
Piper is not concluding that we should read into every disaster a specific, ad-hoc message from God. That would be ridulous, indeed. But this is different.
Piper says in the blog, "When asked about a seemingly random calamity near Jerusalem where 18 people were killed, Jesus answered in general terms...", and then he quotes Jesus regarding the Tower in Siloam. A very general message: REPENT. The same is true of the Katrina flood, the Union University, etc. But they did not have such a combination of ironies as this. Consider the "coincidences":
1. The tornado happens during the ELCA's national convention in the Minneapolis Convention Center.
2. They are using Central Lutheran across the street as its church
3. Only the convention center and the steeple to the church are damaged
4. Time: 2pm
5. Agenda at 2pm: Should homosexuals be allowed to serve in ministry?
When there is a fire in a house, and everything is destroyed except the Bible, most people don't have a hard time saying, "That was the hand of God!"
I don't see this as any different. I believe this was the hand of God speaking.
You are right on point 1, 2, and 4.
As to points 3 and 5?
3. MANY other things were damaged, in fact. Check the news.
5. This was NOT the agenda at 2pm. This agenda, in fact, is not until tomorrow (Friday.)
Was God early?
I agree with knudsondc who says, "I could win the PowerBall lottery every time if I got to choose my numbers after the drawing had been held."
The thing is, you've not even chosen the right numbers here. Theology aside, even the facts are wrong.
It is as easy to say God "did this" to warn people as it is for others who have posted here to say God "did this" to encourage people... to say they were almost harmed as a warning as to say they were almost harmed but miraculously saved.
Why don't we put aside this argument of attributing tornados to God and get down to brass tacks -- we disagree on sexuality issues, and yet we're all believers. We're all at the table with Christ, and we're, like the disciples, arguing over matters of theology. And I daresay, we will never know, until we are face to face, what the actual answers are. And I daresay, when we are face to face, we won't care anymore.
The unavoidably curious thing is that on a day when no bad weather is expected a completely anomalous tornado rips through town on a b-line to this one location, breaks the cross of the steeple and then vanishes.
not just God (because, yes, I believe that God as creator created and made possible all of this weather, good and bad alike!), but to a specific motive on God's part, linked to something beyond the weather. Really, it seems to be about needing to be able to tag something as proof that God agrees with you, instead of agreeing with the ELCA Lutherans on either side of their coin. And, I'll remind you, God, throughout the Bible, is one to invite conversation, argument, discussion, and wrestling. He wants us to think, pray, and grapple hard with all topics, which is what the ELCA is doing. So, the idea that God would be in THIS tornado (but not the others) for the purpose that YOU believe it was for (for, as you see, others can say that if God was in this tornado it was to lift it before it caused more damage, and save the folks doing his work) just seems to do what this blog has done, which is incite conversations about the weather and whether God is
in tornados, as opposed to inciting conversation about the actual issue, which would have been much more directly addressed if Pastor Piper had simply said, "Look. The ELCA is voting on a matter today, and I want you to know where I stand on it." It's okay for us as people of faith to have our OWN stances on issues, and to disagree with each other. God is still on ALL our sides.
Not at all. I would instead say that while this one anomalous cloud may have been sent with a specific message, all the others serve as clear reminder of the broad scope of Jesus' teaching that ALL should consider calamity as a reminder to repent.
"This wasn't an anomalous cloud"
Regardless of how many tornadoes appeared the sudden irregularity of them matches even the strictest definition of anomalous. It doesn't make it less anomalous that there were a lot of anomalies.
"Why is it so important to feel you can use the weather to prove that God agrees with you?" Wow, I think you're the one that's reaching to impute neediness to me in order to bolster your argument.
Nobody said the weather proves God agrees with me or John Piper or anyone. If you had read the blog carefully and accurately you would have noticed that the proof given for what is God's stance on sin was textual and the interpretation was that this anomalous incident, which DID oddly single out one ultimate destination, while it was not in accord with anything else we know about how the weather behaves, it was in accord with how God views the willful sin of his people. Nobody needs a tornado to prove God hates sin or that he regards homosexuality to be sin or that he will not tolerate when his people approve sin. But apparently a lot of people need to be reminded that he is DEAD SERIOUS about it.
It's very odd to me the self-righteous gnostic attitude that dichotomizes the natural and supernatural. A book I read says it well. Our western culture reads about Balaam's ass and says, "Woah! Do you think a donkey really talked?" Any other cultural group says, "Yeah, but what did the donkey say?" And we coast right along thinking we're so philosophically superior when rather than loving wisdom, all we seem to be able to do is challenge it.
"He wants us to think, pray, and grapple hard with all topics, which is what the ELCA is doing." What on earth is your textual basis for saying that God wants us to grapple with sexual immorality? The Bible explicitly tells us to flee sexual immorality. It was the serpent who wanted Adam and Eve to grapple with whether or not it was really a sin to eat the fruit. God had already said his piece on the matter.
So no, I don't have any idea, and I would dare say neither would John Piper, that God wasn't in the other tornadoes. I will wholeheartedly say that he IS in control of every tornado, every kingdom and king on earth, and every tiny micro-vortex that keeps a sparrow aloft.
"others can say that if God was in this tornado it was to lift it before it cause more damage and save the folks..." Save them from who? Yes I agree, God was saving them from his wrath. You see the Bible says over and again that God is patient, longsuffering and not wanting for any to perish, but he simply will not let himself be defamed nor yield his glory to another.
"just seems to do what this blog has done, which is incite conversations about the weather and whether God is in tornados, as opposed to inciting conversation about the actual issue"
See that's the very heart of where you've gone wrong. The real issue IS the nature and character and glory of God. That's the issue for me. That's the issue in every single book John Piper has ever written. That's why he jokes, saying, "If you've read one of my books, you've read them all." The real issue isn't whether homosexuality is sexual immorality or whether it is unacceptable practices for pastors in the church. The real issue is the zeal of God for the glory of his holiness.
To paraphrase Lincoln, it ain't about God being on our side. We need be certain that we are on his side. That's the actual issue.
the 10 plagues on egypt
Noah & the flood (that was a big one)
how many more do you need?
yes sometimes God does judge by natual disaster- is every disaster a judgement- obviously not.
If you took the time to research & know anything about John Piper, you'll find out he does NOT get his jollies from stuff like this-he does it out of a caring heart for mankind- yeah sometimes its not all love & hugs- God is a holy & righteous God, & he cannot tolerate sin. Man has become comfortable with it, He has not. Noah preached & warned ppl for 120 YEARS before God closed the door & brought the flood. There was enough extra room in the ark for THOUSANDS off ppl; but nobody came, & everyone thought he was a fool & hate monger. Well we all know what happened with that one......... let the holy spirit speak to your heart & make your OWN decision......
The debate here isn't whether or not gays and lesbians should be allowed to learn from God. There is no question (see the lady at the well) that all may drink and never be thirsty. And rightly, we should extend invitations to the down-trodden all we can for they need God, too.
Don't be discouraged by the words of man here. It's a debate that will not see an end by our own hands anyways.
I'm assuming your post is honest, and if not I'll praise God just the same as you are right on target with God's personality. He does hate sin, not the sinner; We as fallen should not judge each other but leave it to our Father.
Again, praise Him who has set you free! I do hope the best for you and thank the Lord for your testimony!
You sound like one of Job's friends. All three were wrong. Where were you when God laid the foundations of the earth? Surely, with the wisdom you flaunt here, you were there, yes?
Mr. Piper, please say with Job, "See, I am of small account; what shall I answer you? I lay my hand over my mouth. I have spoken once, and I will not answer; twice, but will say no more." (Job 40:4-5)
Incredible!
God shall not be mocked.
Just a scratch on the surface, the real deal is coming....but will they hear what the Spirit says in these last days????
I must say that I agree 100% with John Piper and what he has stated here. Homosexuality is a sin and even though there are a lot of other sins as well, God did state that it was an abomination in His eyes. He takes this sin very seriously. And we are NOT TO CONDONE SIN, especially a sin that is an abomination in the eyes of God. I don't think that it was merely a coincidence that this tornado hit the church and did what it did at the same time that this conference was going on. I hope the leadership at this church will take this for the obvious sign that it is.
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:6-8
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Revelation 22:14+15
I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Revelation 2:19-23
These are the words of Jesus, the Son of God. People READ these words!
He does NOT TOLERATE SIN IN THE CHURCH!!!
It is time for us to wake up from our slumber, and repent for our evil actions against the Kingdom of God! There is no room for error in this hour! WAKE UP!!!
1. His first point is absolutely true, and it has nothing to do with the tornado
2. Again, nothing to do with the tornado, the church has embraced repentant sexual sinners. Absolutely true.
3. Pronouncing that what will keep you from the kingdom is actually permissible is wicked. Absolutely true.
4. Jesus controls the weather, and therefore ordained that this particular tornado exist and sent it to the location to which it went. Again, absolutely true.
5. Calamities of all sorts are meant to bring repentance to unbelievers. Definitely true.
Number 6 should be the only controversial point in this whole article. We know for certain that the tornado and the damage done by it were ordained by God. We do not know FOR CERTAIN if the specific goal of the tornado in God's mind was to bring about repentance for condoning homosexuality in particular, but this would be a coherent and logical explanation.
So enough of this "shame on you Dr. Piper" nonsense. The 6th point is the only point that requires conjecture, which is why Piper spell out his logic and TELLS YOU THAT HE IS MAKING HIS OWN INTERPRETATION:
"Let me venture an interpretation of this Providence with some biblical warrant."
People who don't "really" like the sovereignty of God to encroach upon "their" theology, are usually stuck attacking another person, standing in judgement over them, yet don't actually know or care what God has said in His word.
I'll go even further to say that beyond the tornado coming against professing Christians, and a people, maybe even mostly hypocrites, that the homosexual perversion, abortion and other grievous sins that are infesting and infecting North America ARE the judgements of God against this wicked and unrepentant people. Listen to the word of Christ, Repent! Humble yourselves, and turn for you evil ways. I have no doubt serious persecution is coming, very quickly, and the wickedness of the comments some have made are only a foretaste, and done but some who would call themselves Christians. They actually think they are donig God a favor in commenting against the truth of scripture.
Psalm 50 ...But to the wicked God says:
“What right have you to recite my statutes
or take my covenant on your lips?
For you hate discipline,
and you cast my words behind you.
If you see a thief, you are pleased with him,
l and you keep company with adulterers.
“You give your mouth free rein for evil,
and your tongue frames deceit.
You sit and speak against your brother;
you slander your own mother's son.
These things you have done, and I have been silent;
you thought that I was one like yourself.
But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.
“Mark this, then, you who forget God,
lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver!
The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me;
to one who orders his way rightly
I will show the u salvation of God!”
1) God's Word has already made God's view of this particular topic (homosexuality) abundantly clear. You can deny it is there or you can use "creative interpretation" or -- Piper is taking God's Word as stated.
2) It wasn't Piper that prayed for or caused in any way this tornado. It was God. The winds do "obey Him". He can start them and He can stop them. They cannot blow without Him.
3) When bad things happen, it is important for us (who believe God is Sovereign) to consider whether God is trying to get our attention and if so, WHY!
Note again the conclusion of the post. Whatever God's specific purpose in this particular event, it can serve as a "What if" to consider -- if we have sin in our lives or are approving of sin in our churches, then God might purpose to give us a firm warning -- or worse. He has in the past, and He could now or in the future. It is a challenge for us to consider our own hearts and our own churches. Do not deviate from what we KNOW God tells us in Scripture -- in any area of our personal lives our our churches.
It is not so much a condemnation of Piper on the ELCA but a realization that our Loving God is also Holy and He seeks to purify His Bride, the Church. Let the mere possibility that this was or even could be an active judgment of God on the ELCA for considering something that directly defies God's Word serve as an awaking -- that we are sinners, and that God wants us to pursue Holiness, and that His Word is the authority that tells us what Holiness means.
My personal response to this post is to remember the warning of the book of Hebrews:
"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31
Before flaming me for my personal response -- please read the end of verse 30:
"The Lord shall judge His people."
Just for kicks, read the entire context... Then, go back to verse 26 and read again. You who have experienced His Grace, who have your sins washed away by the shed blood -- without which there is no remission of sins -- if YOU trample under foot the Son of God (v29) by continuing in willful sin (v26), do you suppose you will not be judged! Only by His mercy are we not all in Hell right now! Only by His Great Mercy was the loss of human life avoided in this tornado!
If we look, we can actually see God's Mercy through this tragedy! And, to me, Piper's post points out that it is His mercy that gives you and me the opportunity to confess my sins and change my heart (I John 1:9) in order to avoid His judgment. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us! (I John 1:8)
We must daily search our hearts for sin to confess -- and we will find that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked -- beyond our ability to recognize our own hearts! (Jeremiah 17:9)
As a sidenote, God seems to have a special interest in communicating with people who say they have allegiance to Christ Jesus but act otherwise. That may come from his love for them (he who loves his children disciplines them) just as much as his zeal for righteousness and his own glory.
regardless, kudos to you, Dr. Piper for saying this! You're in my prayers!Keep up the good work!
I deserve worse than any natural disaster that has happened. It reminds me that I deserve a supernatural disaster.
I struggle with sins worse than homosexuality.
Therefore, when I see a heart-breaking headline, whether it be in Mumbai or Minneapolis, I pray for those survivors for their well being, for God's sustaining grace on those who offer aid, and that God be glorified in the midst of disaster. Then I thank God that I am free from the ultimate supernatural disaster (hell), that Jesus Christ paid the full penalty of my sin, and because of his resurrection from death, His righteousness is credited to me in order that if I do get swallowed up in an earthquake in this life, there is hope in the future.
God shows his sovereignty in great and small ways. Is it correct to intimate that God may be doing it now? It is supremely logical and God honoring to say yes.
While not the most Bible-centered denomination to begin with, this action by the ELCA makes me recall 2 Peter 2: 1-3--But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
I fear for this church.
Compared to Elijah, John Piper is a kitten. Elijah just might've prayed for the tornado if he were there. The Bible is unequivocal about something else, too: if the voices you hear whispering are in direct contradiction to scripture, then they are demons..
Freaking classic!!!
Best sentence on this entire blog.
I just hope other Christians out there know that there are other positions out there.
Martin Luther made this observation, which now seems to apply ever more directly to the church that has taken his name:
"If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition
every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little
point which the world and the devil are at that moment
attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I
may be professing Christ.
Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is
proved, and to be steady on all the battlefield besides
is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.
-MARTIN LUTHER
Beautiful.
The first chapter of Romans states that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men..." Why? Because "what can be known about God is plain to [men], because God has shown it to them." How so? "For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made."
The sun is a beautiful example. The sun is important for the life of many things. It gives heat, light, and energy to the earth. It is truly a wonderful, delightful thing. However, that same sun can blister skin, dry out crops, and cause skin cancer. The fact is, the sun gives men, both the righteous and unrighteous a very small glimpse of God's beauty and wrath.
So what of thunderstorms and tornados? They can be awe-inspiring and cause wonder, while at the same time, be fearful and bring fierce damage. God was not ignorant of the tornado that went through downtown Minneapolis. He had His purposes. Can we know those specific purposes for that specific event for sure? I don't believe so. But the bible does say that creation displays God's attributes. And Christ does say that "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Therefore, I think it is safe to say that the tornado was not an accident and did display a small glimpse of God's righteous judgement on all men--which means that the ELCA AND every Christ-professing church should especially take heed to the warning.
1. Citing the Apostle Paul , you argue that the unrepentant practice of homosexual behavior will exclude a person from the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Jesus said that greed will exclude a person from the kingdom of God (Luke 14:33; Luke 18:24-25). Were inclement weather conditions to flood or destroy the Christian bookstore at the downtown campus of your mega-church, should we interpret that to be an act of God?
2. You say that “the church has always embraced those who forsake sexual sin but who still struggle with homosexual desires.” Do you think that blaming a tornado on homosexuality is the best way to reach out to the gay community and show them the love of Jesus Christ?
3.You argue that “official church pronouncements that condone the very sins that keep people out of the kingdom of God, are evil” and then conclude that the tornado must have been God’s response to such evil. And yet Jesus said that God “causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” Do you believe that homosexuality is so extraordinarily evil that it warrants special divine intervention while little children dying of famine and lack of water do not?
4. You claim that Jesus “controls the wind, including all tornadoes.” While the Bible includes stories in which God does alter weather conditions, such things are not always linked to divine intervention. In fact, the book of Job indicates that Satan was behind the storm that killed Job’s family…and the Gospel of Mark never states that God started the storm that Jesus calmed. Do you believe that God orchestrates every natural disaster, and that the death and suffering that occurs is always a result of God’s wrath upon the people involved?
5.Your example of Jesus’ perspective on the tower in Siloam is a curious one, seeing as Jesus was responding to the hypocrisy of those who assumed that disasters happen to people who are “greater sinners” than they. And so I will ask you the question that Jesus asked—Do you suppose that the Lutherans meeting in that church were greater sinner than you? Perhaps the point of Jesus’ question was not to make a general statement about natural disasters, but rather to evoke a response similar to that of the Pharisees who after being asked a similar question, turned and dropped their stones.
6. You confidently conclude in your last point that, “the tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin.” A wise man once said, “There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: righteous men who get what the wicked deserve, and wicked men who get what the righteous deserve…No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.” (Ecclesiastes 8:14) What makes you the exception? How can you be so confident about what God is doing in these extra-biblical circumstances?
Why is Westboro "God hates fags" Baptist Church still standing and untouched by a tornado, earthquake, wildfire or any other act of God? If God sent a tornado as a "warning" to the ELCA but lets Westboro Baptist stand and spew their hatred and vitriol, then I'm going to have to rethink my idea that I serve a loving and intelligent God, and instead begin to wonder if I serve a god who's off his bloody rocker.
Come on you "Christians" in name--get serious. If you don't like what Jesus says, go serve someone else. But nowhere do you have the prerogative of changing our Lord's word to fit your own "style" of Christianity. There is no such thing as personal and variant styles of Christianity. If you don't like the Christian faith handed down to us in the Scriptures, then do everyone a favor--go start your own religion and use your own vocabulary. I am surprised at you that you think you can exchange the Gospel for another gospel, which is really not another; that you think you can exchange the truth for a lie and keep calling it the truth. One day, except by the grace of God, you will wake up to find out that God himself has not been playing your game!
If you will hear His voice, and not harden your heart against the truth; if you will love the Creator and Christ the Savior more than your sin, no personal change is too great a price to pay to please and honor him who gave his life for your redemption on the cross.
God is God, and you are not. God acts like God and you should not. God alone determines what is right and what is wrong. You and I alone must repent and not God. God never changes, you and I must. By God's grace, mercy, and indwelling Holy Spirit we must and can change and come into alignment with God's descriptions of what is right. Then we shall leave our old ways. We shall stop justifying our sins. We will find the joy of joining the truth in our proclamation that 'God is holy and we are not. But He is changing me to become holy, without which no one will see the Lord.'
Pastor Piper is standing in a long tradition including Jonathan Edwards, John Cotton (see the history of King Phillip's War), through to the prophets of ancient Israel.
I believe that God sent warnings with the Two Towers and Katrina. In the past, America would repent and be blessed. This time, that doesn't seem to have happened. We have sown the wind, and like ELCA, we may well reap the whirlwind if we do not in humility repent.
In the past, pastors would preach warning of the wrath of God and urging repentance when such things happen. Now not so many do. They will be judged as watchmen on whether they issued the warning cry or not.
2 Chronicles 7:14
"f My people, who are called by My Name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
First let me get this out of the way up front for some of you who will take offense to my taking offense at John's article. I honestly have no problem with Rev. Piper expressing his opinions concerning "homosexuality." It is a free country, and I believe in an open table of discourse. So, my response will confront John where I disagree with him, and I believe I am free to offer my opinions too.
However, what I really mean to address is his perpetuation of the ridiculous notion that God is, or would, or has ever, actually enacted vengeance upon humankind via weather, or disease, or war, or famine, etc.
Now, let me beat some of you to it... I am fully aware that the Bible has several examples of what ancients perceived as being God's retribution on humankind. Sodom, Noah, Babel, Egypt, and more. I really don't care to get into specific debate as to whether these were actual historic events, or, if they were, whether God actually caused them, or whether they were enacted for the purposes for which the ancients supposed they were. Such debate is fun, and can be informative, but, since said events cannot be proven to have actually occurred, and since, even if we could prove so, there is no way to prove that the events were caused by God, the debate ends at pure fun and speculation, or at least it does if parties in the debate are able to debate in love and respect.
What I would like to encourage, however, is that we keep in mind that all ancient cultures viewed catastrophic events in this way. Since they had no scientific knowledge of how the universe worked, they were doing their best to make sense of tragic events. Since such events were obviously from some source far greater and more powerful than themselves ancients could only make sense of them in other-worldly terms, as being from "the gods," or in the case of early Judaism, Islam and Christianity, from God. To the Greeks, Zeus, the mightiest of the gods, was the thrower of lightning, and did so to enact retribution upon humans or upon other gods with whom he was dissatisfied. Oddly, many Christians still today, perhaps somewhat "tongue-in-cheek," but still with some fear, speak of God potentially striking someone with lightning for some perceived offense. This ancient fear is still deeply embedded within our psychological selves, even though we know, scientifically, this is not probable, or even likely.
So, when I read in Rev. Piper's blog the assertion that God in effect sent a tornado to Minneapolis, MN, and caused it to settle at or near the meeting place of the National Convention of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, in order to warn them of God's impending dissatisfaction with many in that denomination who were considering a "Proposed Social Statement on Human Sexuality,” I was horrified, to say the least! Piper's indication is that God's wrath was only a tornado away from wiping out all participants who might dare to vote that actively gay clergy should be ordained and allowed to serve freely in the ELCA, and that God actually caused a tornado to appear to deliver that precise warning!
Rev. Piper, I truly and honestly love you as a dear brother in Jesus Christ, and I have personally been blessed many times in the past by your writing and speaking. However, I fear that in this, quite literally silly, proclamation, you have overstepped and done great damage to your otherwise fruitful ministry in Christ. I have to counter-proclaim: this message of yours did not come from the Lord. You are out of line, and out of step, and I pray you, repent.
It is one thing to offer your best understanding of scripture perceived to deal with homosexuality, even if it differs from mine. But, to make such a bold and unwise and hateful and unjust proclamation is quite another thing altogether!
I will not address items #2 and #3 on your list, other than to simply say, I respectfully disagree. These are as of yet unsettled debates that will continue for yet some time and need not be rehashed here.
In item #1, you fail to provide reference to the particular version you quote: "nor men who practice homosexuality..." I would simply follow with this, given your demonstration of extreme fundamentalism and preference for a literal interpretation: if you hold to a literal interpretation, if this english translation is even accurate to begin with, then you must say that this applies to men only. So, apparently, women who practice homosexuality are not excluded from the Kingdom of God. Lesbians everywhere thank you for this inclusion.
In item #4, to suggest that this question asked under the breath by Jesus' disciples is somehow proof that every wind, of any type, including tornados, are caused, summoned, and directed by Jesus is quite simply ludicrous! I honestly find it downright weird that you said something like this.
In item #5, are you suggesting that Jesus' answer here indicates that He, or our Triune God, caused the tower of Siloam to fall and kill the 18 persons for some perceived offense? And that further, because Jesus did so, He also does so with all such calamities which befall humankind? Surely not, sir! The scripture in no way makes any such claim, nor does Jesus in His response. The only point I hear Jesus making is that we can never know when such calamities may occur and therefore we should all be prepared for the end of our earthly lives. I hear, implied in Jesus' response, the notion of God's allowance of natural, or otherwise, calamitous events to occur usually without God's intervention either in causation or in prevention.
Finally, in item #6, my dear brother, I can only respond with, WOW! REALLY? It is this statement/conclusion of yours that I must insist that you repent of! We can agree to disagree given our different interpretations of scripture. I may be wrong on these. I don't believe I am, but I could be. But, you could be wrong. However, as to whether God sent this tornado as a warning, let's be clear... you are absolutely wrong in this respect. There is simply no scriptural or scientific evidence that you can call upon that will support such a ridiculous suggestion! This is quite simply Falwellian fear-mongering at it's most destructive. Are you the new Jerry Falwell, my dear brother? Please say it isn't so.
You fail to mention in your blog that this same tornado also touched down in a neighborhood to the south in Minneapolis, causing great damage to homes. Did God also cause this same tornado to do this damage? If so, what do you think was the sin of the people who lived in those homes? Or, what was God trying to warn them about? Now, I'll give you this: if, in the coming days, we find that the persons who lived in those homes damaged to the south of the convention center were actually the persons who were voting pro-gay in the convention of the ELCA, I'll stand corrected and happily admit my error.
In God's Love and Grace,
Rev. Gregory M. McCaw
08-20-2009
you are a reverend, yet the bible is not infallible to you...I will pray for your flock.
*the one where you say you'll be respectful and then call him silly, ludicrous, weird and superstitious
*The one where you chastise Piper for acting as divine interpreter while you yourself discount ALL of the prophets and OT writers as uneducated superstitious hicks.
*Upholding science over fear, and then misreporting your science when the real probability favors the so-called superstitious: "According to the National Weather Service, the chance of an individual in the United States being killed or inured during a given year is one in 240,000. Assuming an average life span of 80 years, a person's odds over their lifetime becomes one in 3000. Assuming the average person has ten family members and others with whom they are close, then the chances are one in 300 that a lightning strike will closely affect a person during their lifetime."
Consider with me that the 1 in 300 number is only an aggregate number over the entire course of an eighty year lifespan. How much of the span of your life were you nowhere near a lightning storm? When there were storms, how much of that time were you out in the storm?
If you or any of your scientifically superior friends are out even within a mile of a severe lightning storm, I strongly suggest getting undercover before you become even more enlightened.
As for God's wrath, I strongly suggest you lay aside your chrono-ethno-egocentrism and consider that the ancients might have had brains just as developed and useful as yours. Clearly you believe they, along with all knowns species of livestock, were smart enough to fear a lightning storm. Could it be they knew more than you.
Also consider that the Bible claims these ancients actually heard God speak audibly, in direct discourse, and that Jesus not only agreed with, but quoted them on it.
But alas, the spiritual has little to nothing to do with the natural, unless you really believe that whole "the Word" became flesh story.
One thing, I will admit and take responsibility for some of my obvious anger that happened to bleed through in my post. I apologize. Thank you for pointing it out.
I continue to submit that Piper was the disrespectful party here. Even though I chided him for being "silly" and "ludicrous," which I still maintain is not at all inaccurate - I just wish I had used less angry lyric here - I did not, however, suggest that God would be soon conjuring either a flood, or other natural disaster, or some odd disease, to afflict John with because of his unfortunate proclamation.
I will go further to say that in my mind John's motivation was most likely to attempt to bring heavy influence upon the ELCA voters to sway them to vote anti-gay. Now, there's nothing really wrong with an attempt to influence. However, I see everything wrong with attempting to influence through the use of fear-mongering and unsupportable proclamations of potential doom. That is unloving, disrespectful, ungraceful, and unTruthful.
Still, please accept my apology for not better controlling my initial anger. Blessings... Greg
dawn
So Death itself is not supposed to be the end. But it will be the Ultimate End of every human being who loves sin, including the sin of homosexuality, though certainly by no means limited to it. About the false teachers who condone homosexuality, St. Jude has something important to say:
"...these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion. 12 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever."
From your conclusion, I would have expected earth quakes, tidal waves and the odd commet to hit us.
Either God was too busy with Minneapolis to notice us (meaning God is not omnipotant) or your poorly constructed, tortuous conclusion is wrong.
Which could it be?
Luke 13:4
Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?
Any man attempting to attributing motive to the actions of God is vastly overstepping his abilities and guilty of the greatest arrogance.
For my own name's sake I delay my wrath. For the sake of my praise, I hold it back from you so as not to cut you off. See, I have refined you, though not as silver. I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake I do this! How can I let myself be defamed? My glory I will not yield to another. Is 48:9-11
To refuse to do so...to refuse to speak the Word of God...seems to me, to be of the greatest arrogance, indeed.
Second, probably, to refusing to come to HIm in the first place.
"Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you." Psalm 9:10
As Freud said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
Piper is saying that the tordando was for the leadership of the church, not the homosexual community across the country.
Cool off, and read the post again.
Maybe the tornado was God's sign of warning to those who oppose gay ordination? Maybe God just sneezed?
"We trust that the weather is not a commentary on our work," said the Rev. Steven Loy, who was helping oversee the convention."
http://tiny.cc/lyxnS
Loved many things about this post. But it may be necessary here to clarify what you're NOT saying. I'm sure you're NOT saying that tragedies only befall the morally corrupt. I think that would steer *hard* _away_ from the meaning of Luke 13. This post reads that way, but I know you better.
How would you have responded to this tragedy if the tornado had hit Bethlehem instead? Would you have said this was a sign that you need to repent of anything specific?
Is there anything you believe that displeases the Lord about your church that you would call for repentance had you been in another city watching this happen?
Love your ministry!! I thank God for you!!
I'm going to venture a guess, were that to happen, that this specifically would be among his first and most central thoughts.
I embrace the interpretation of this recent event but wonder why it is not more common place Or to look at it from another side, why was the ELCA's meeting held to be so much more special in God's eyes than any other similar gathering and so warrant this direct intervention?
There is a difference between willful disobedience, and ignorance. When you KNOW it's wrong and do it anyway... that becomes iniquity. Sin can sometimes be something we don't know is wrong, until He reveals it to us. Then, if we sincerely repent and turn away from it, we are forgiven.
It's interesting though, when you're driving 50 miles an hour through a 40 mph zone and a cop pulls you over... you still get a ticket even though you 'Didn't know the speed limit". Ignorance is no excuse in man's law, why should it be in God's law?
The thing is, when you read the Word and the Holy Spirit convicts you, if you repent and turn away from that sin, even if it's hard, and you may fail and have to try again... He is faithful to forgive. It's when you insist on continuing on that path that you KNOW is wrong, that His forgiveness is witheld.
I don't think I'd want to be hit by lightning to find out the truth. A strike landing a few feet away should be enough to make you wonder what's going on, and get out of the way! I'd say the message is pretty clear. Just something to think about.
We don't need Piper and other "interpreter/messengers" when God ditches being "ooooh! mysterious!" and just shows up.
Until then, let's not get into overanalyzing the weather (which, by the way, can show up on a Dopplar radar so ain't mysterious at all). Until tornadoes start touching down on the homes of all people who are adulterers -- who FAR outnumber the homosexuals in ANY church -- we can say a weather pattern is just a weather pattern.
That message is clear to me for sure!
Piper never says he can discern WHY disasters and calamities occur. rather, he appropriately uses the story of the tower that fell on the 18 people as a framework showing OF WHAT all disaster and calamity should remind us: that one person is no better off than the other; and TO WHERE all disaster and calamity should turn us: repentance.
Piper neither says nor alludes to the tornado (or for example, a friend's car wreck or the tsunami) as "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" judgements on sin. they, like the tower in siloam, are events in a fallen world that Jesus says should warn us of our condition without repentance...that remind us of our need for and continual dependence upon Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
also, there were probably many other things besides this convention going on in the lives of the people of Minneapolis in which this same hermeneutic is appropriate. Piper simply uses the convention as a poignant example.
Please. Homosexuality is once again the pet sin of the conservative church. Let's focus on divorce, greed, and gluttony for once. Those sins would call down the utter destruction of America, not simply a mild tornado.
I am so sad. Now the rest of us have to work all the harder to undo the damage caused by such thoughtless, misguided remarks to convince people that Jesus brought a message of great hope, love, grace, and freedom. Piper is once again very faith-robbing with his remarks.
I respect John Piper as a brother in Christ (a very insightful brother!), but I have to side with Greg Boyd.
But that’s not the real point. Rev. Piper is promoting a God that is unjust and cruel because he’s implying that God chooses to hurt people for other people’s sins. Or will Rev. Piper and his defenders somehow care to defend the assertion that they must be making which is that God chose to scare and hurt two parishioners of ours whose property were effected by the tornado, and whose children were on the second floor when it hit. And please, don’t tell me we’re all sinners and deserving of punishment—we know that. And we know that there are temporal consequences for sin. And we know that often there are those who suffer for others’ sin (for example, Iraqis who suffer for the sin of our arrogance and violence, or for that matter gays and lesbians who suffer for us heterosexuals refusing to repent of our sexual sin and projecting it on others). What separates other believers from Rev. Piper is that we don’t believe anymore in his terrible, capricious, wrathful God. That God was crucified on the cross with Jesus. What we believe is that we’ve been saved from sin by God’s mercy through Christ, and saved from evil and death as well (that’s Lutheran by the way), in order to live in justice, mercy and peace. Not in fear. Perfect love casts out fear, as Rev. Piper should know.
This is not the first time Rev. Piper has made such outlandish claims, which offend me, and—at risk of having a house drop on my head—offend God. When the I-35 bridge fell, he wrote similar words. Of course, he didn’t say that God made the bridge fall to punish the guilty. But when he wrote that he told his 11-year old granddaughter that God could have held up the bridge with one pinky finger and that God had a purpose for not doing so, well that comes close to blasphemy. My daughter, who was almost seven at the time, was on the school bus on that bridge. That God would choose to not save her in order to warn others of sin is an affront to all who believe.
I have read other sermons of Rev. Piper, and he has important things to say, although many might disagree with him. If he continues proclaiming this nonsense, he runs the risk of becoming a late night TV joke. I don’t think that would be helpful.
Rev. Patrick Cabello Hansel
My Dad stuck with the ELCA for years after he saw that they were headed down the wrong path, I would like to think, to try and affect some change. About two years ago he left that church, quit his job of 30-some years, went to seminary, and last fall, began sheparding his own flock.
It was obvious to him as well as it is to me that people are drifting away from a healthy fear of the Lord's wrath these days. What about what God allowed to happen to Job?? Was God petty in his dealings with poor Job? What if God does allow such things to happen even today? Wouldn't a loving God who knew his children were behaving wrongly try to give them a nudge, a slap, or even a shove to get there attention and provide correction? To what lengths have you gone or would you go to correct your own children if their life or worse, yes, WORSE, their soul, was at stake?
What about the father that turns his son into the authorities for a crime, knowing he will be punished, perhaps severely, because it's the right thing to do and the only way to save his life after everything else has been tried? Is he cruel?
What if you had an adrenaline junkie, a believer, who loves to speed down the highway at outlandish speeds on a motorcycle. His friends and family have prayed for him and repeatedly asked him to slow down before he hurts or kills himself or someone else. Even after a friend dies in a high speed accident, he still doesn't listen. What if he got into an accident and broke numerous bones in his body, came out of it with his life, but, not without scars. Maybe shattered a leg or injured an eye that would never be the same. Now he slows down. Maybe he can't ride anymore because of the eye. Was the Lord cruel to allow that to happen when he could have stopped it? What if that's what it took to make him see the error of his ways? Wouldn't God be the one who would know what it takes? Maybe other lives were saved as well because of the tragedy, not only physically, but, could that man continue to pass on God's word as well, perhaps with renewed vigor?
Maybe it's the concequences of our own free will we should fear, and RESPECT the Lord who gave it to us.
No one was seriously hurt in the storm in Minneapolis. So, how was that cruel? Was anything damaged that could not be replaced? And if so, how does the property that was damaged and the scare of a lifetime compare in price to that of a single soul?
Fear and wrath have their place in relation to respect. Especially to the Father of all who loves us perfectly and deserves the utmost respect from us all. Only God gives "perfect love" and it is through such love, love that corrects, love that was given through and by his only Son on the cross, love, that when it is realized by his children, that fear is cast out.
What Rev Piper says may not be comfortable to hear, may not even be true, but, is still worth consideration. Souls always are...... :)
Jamie Quam, Baghdad, Iraq
The problem with literalism is that no one truly practices it. We certainly eat pork, don't segregate menstruating women or stone disobedient children. All those are "in the bible". If we, through the reason God has given us and through our communities of faith can see our way to knowing that God does not require those things anymore, then we must have some other criteria for deciding God's will other than a literal passage that we pull from Scripture. (Not to mention our almost complete ignoring of Jesus' very clear words on possessions and money, and not using violence. Why is it that we're not literal about those words--words spoken directly by our Lord?)
But there is something else that is troublesome. Rev. Piper rather often sees things that happen as warnings about God's impending wrath. Certainly that's a possibility. It is equally a possibility that God uses difficulties and challenges as a way to help us grow: his strength made perfect in our weakness. To say that the specific tornado here was a warning to the ELCA about fully accepting gays and lesbians makes as much sense as a warning to Rev. Piper about not being arrogant or self righteous, or any other supposed sin (I'm not claiming those sins for him, mind you. I don't know the man, and am not in a relationship pastorally where I feel I could direct him in any way. Nor is he with those in the ELCA who think differently than him on a complicated issue.)
Finally, it is most likely, in my opinion, that the tornado was a tornado, caused by winds and pressure that are a part of God's creation, but acting according to natural laws. I see the hand of God mostly in the courageous and generous response of people to those in harm's way.
Now, on the lighter side--I kid you not--I had never been to the Desiring God blog site until this issue came up--and soon after doing so, my computer started crashing and acting weird, to the point that I can't even get it to boot to Windows. I'm not kidding! So it seems I could conclude one of three things:
1) God is punishing me or warning me about one or more of my various sins.
2) God is building me up by testing my patience (I'm getting an "F" so far!)
3) I need to buy a new computer.
I suppose a 4th possibility is that computers, internet, cell phones and all are the work of the devil--which is what we all believe as soon as they stop working as we wish them too!
Peace
If something happens to a womans child, say it dies, you'll say He works in mysterious ways. Or a man murders someone, you'll say that He doesn't interfere with our life, gives us free will, etc. If a typhoon hits a country (as typhoons do) it's just a sad weather catastrophe.
So then, why is this somehow different?
Just because they accepted gays, God will step in and interfere/punish them for their free will? That's kinda hypocritical.
Regardless of the word used to describe or translate, it is a sin according to scripture.
Mark 4:41 says the wind and sea will obey him. True. It does not say that He caused them. In fact, the context of the passage suggests that the storm was not caused by God because Jesus rebuked the wind and told the sea to be still. "A kingdom divided against itself will be ruined" However, the winds did obey when Jesus said "Peace" This is what the disciples are referring to, not that Jesus caused the winds. What was the purpose for these winds? Perhaps a strong low pressure system was moving across the waters. It is difficult if not impossible to tell the motives of these winds.
When I read point 5, it sounds as though Paster John is using Luke 13:4-5 to imply that the terrible events happened because God wants us to repent. I agree, but disagree. Yes, God does want us to repent. That is clear to me. But to say that God CAUSES terrible events to happen to get people to repent is unbiblical. First of all, Jesus asks the question "Do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?" The obvious answer is no. Which implies that God is not bringing this calamity as a direct result of the sins of the people killed. Rather Jesus is using this event to show people that if we do not repent, we will also perish. Jesus is using a physical death to explain the spiritual death. He is not saying, if you don't repent bad things will happen to you. That is simply not true. Read Job as a reference. Bad things do happen to good people.
Here is a logical thought. Do you think that tornadoes are good things? I would say they are bad things, if not evil things. They are known to cause destruction and chaos. Do you believe God is good? I do. Are destruction and chaos good things? To say yes, you would have to make some serious stipulations. How can you say that tornadoes are good things? Can God do evil? Think about it...
We as Christians have far better tools for dealing with these issues, such as the radical, transformative love of Jesus. Scripture says it is His kindness that leads us to repentance. :-) The gospel is GOOD news!
Ironically, I'm wouldn't be surprised if the insurance company classifies this as an act of God.
http://www.examiner.com/x-19719-Atlanta-Souther...
As soon as the Social Statement on Sexuality was accepted the sun came out.
So, all the people who experienced storm damage in South Minneapolis were also gay?
Shame on you for pretending to know the will of God.
As far as Simon's post goes, I think YOU, my friend, could use a little help on YOUR probability and statistics. The idea that given enough time all possibilities will eventually happen (which is not exactly what you said, but it's pretty close) is a long standing statistical fallacy (courtesy of Star Trek...which I rather like, by the way...the show, not the fallacy.) Given all the churches in the world, and all the time in the world, it is, in fact, NOT likely that a random tornado will happen during calm weather and eventually hit one where people are discussing homosexuality. Any more than it is likely that someone will throw a hot dog at the steeple, or that a vandal will paint the steeple green. (Okay, not the greatest examples, but I just woke up.)
Those are all random possibilities, but they are unlikely (even though vandals (and birds) exist) They do not become more likely given a long time horizon. How about the old standard, since I'm feeling rather uncreative. If I put all the pieces of a flashlight into a pillow case and shake the pillow case, the flashlight will NEVER assemble itself. Randomness (entropy) has been proven to work toward chaos (disorder), not toward order.
Anyway, my two cents.
In that same storm 3 out of the 4 churches in Comfrey, Minnesota were destroyed.
Conclusion: God was showing us which is his true chosen church. The others were wicked and loathsome.
Also in Comfrey, nearly the whole town was destroyed, including the school, with the bank being one of the few buildings left standing.
Conclusion: God was trying to tell us that education is a waste of time, and money is what it's really all about.
In the same storm, the steeple was snapped off (sound familiar?) at the church on the Gustavus Adolphus campus. Much of the campus was destroyed, suffering between $50 to $60 million in damages. At that time the students were gone on spring break.
Conclusion: God hates spring break and destroyed the college to send a message about the evils of spring break.
Alternate conclusion: God hates college and wanted the students to continue to party it up on spring break since classes were delayed and spring break was extended for three weeks.
Alternate conclusion 2: God wants spring break to be 4 weeks long because he wants the celebration of the birth and resurrection of Jesus to be a 4 week long event.
Also that year, Gustavus Adolphus had plans to go online.
Conclusion: God hates the internet and was trying to send a message.
Job 36:27 For he draws up the drops of water; they distill his mist in rain,
Job 36:28 which the skies pour down and drop on mankind abundantly.
Job 36:29 Can anyone understand the spreading of the clouds, the thunderings of his pavilion?
Job 36:30 Behold, he scatters his lightning about him and covers the roots of the sea.
Job 36:31 For by these he judges peoples; he gives food in abundance.
Job 36:32 He covers his hands with the lightning and commands it to strike the mark.
Job 36:33 Its crashing declares his presence; the cattle also declare that he rises.
God exerts direct volitional control over the weather...
...
Job 37:6 For to the snow he says, 'Fall on the earth,' likewise to the downpour, his mighty downpour.
Job 37:7 He seals up the hand of every man, that all men whom he made may know it.
Job 37:8 Then the beasts go into their lairs, and remain in their dens.
Job 37:9 From its chamber comes the whirlwind, and cold from the scattering winds.
Job 37:10 By the breath of God ice is given, and the broad waters are frozen fast.
Job 37:11 He loads the thick cloud with moisture; the clouds scatter his lightning.
Job 37:12 They turn around and around by his guidance, to accomplish all that he commands them on the face of the habitable world.
Job 37:13 Whether for correction or for his land or for love, he causes it to happen.
Notice that He sends the whirlwind. And in case you all missed it, He can do it for our correction AND for His love...but regardless of the motive, He causes it to happen.
Well said, Dr. Piper. Do not cease to stand for and proclaim what the Word of God says despite what this Laodecian church spouts back at you.
5. When asked about a seemingly random calamity near Jerusalem where 18 people were killed, Jesus answered in general terms—an answer that would cover calamities in Minneapolis, Taiwan, or Baghdad. God’s message is repent, because none of us will otherwise escape God’s judgment.
Jesus: “Those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:4-5)
So when James asked the question about "other homes and parts of the cities" that have nothing to do with the conference, his answer to the question was already in the article.
As I sit here and read these comments it is mind boggling to me how many people react without really understanding what John Piper is actually saying. He did not single out the sin of homosexuality, he did not say that this tornado was God's judgement on the ELCA for their proposed position on homosexuality and yet that is what most people are assuming and reacting to. He simply said that God is sovereign over the weather and in quoting Jesus Himself in response to a "natural disaster" he reminds us that all such events should cause us to consider our lives and decisions and repent where necessary because one day we will all appear before God whether we are crushed by a falling tower, sucked up in a tornado or die in our sleep...
Put it another way, if your God was so opposed to homosexuality, wouldn't there actually be whole reams of reports of weird weather phenomenon every time a church started being a little bit more open minded?
Think about it for a second. All of the churches in all of the world in all of recorded history and you have ONE example of weird weather when discussing the idea that gays might actually be OK.
Also, are you sure it was because they were discussing homosexuality? How can you be sure that your God wasn't targeting something else? Maybe one of the people there was wearing a t-shirt that offended him? Maybe one of the neighbors was putting up curtains at EXACTLY 2pm next door and the color of these curtains offended this God so he aimed the tornado at them.
Maybe it wasn't even a human issue. Maybe there was a dog that had made this God irate by peeing on the side of the church at EXACTLY 2pm and the tornado was actually meant for Fido.
Without a clear, booming voice-from-the-sky saying "I am sending this tornado cause you guys are saying that men who play with other men should be allowed to become ministers.", all of this is pure guesswork.
Couldn't a liberal preacher just as easily claim that the unexpectedly pleasant weather in Washington, DC on the day of President Obama's inauguration was evidence that God favored him over McCain? Couldn't I claim that God sent that hurricane during last summer's RNC convention to warn conservative Christians that they had become overly politicized. Who would Mr. Piper be to argue? All I'd need to do is muster up some Bible verses about the dangers of Christians casting their lot with politicians and my case would be just as firm as the one he has made in his blog post.
If anyone is guilty of sin, it's Mr. Piper for elevating himself to hotline-to-God status. And if anyone has so little faith that they need to assign causality to the weather, well, aren't they lucky to have found a kindred spirit in so blessed and learned a cleric.
Bravo for being honest about the holiness of God and the deceitfulness of sin.
Praying for some of the commenters...
I believe the genuine challenge facing the Church, in regards to not only homosexuality but every issue of brokenness, is not primarily its exegesis nor its response to moral turpitude, but its seeming inability to make God look irresistibly glorious and ultimately all-satisfying. The God of the twenty-first century, at least as he is presented in most evangelical churches, is quite frankly not as exciting or captivating as gay sex¬—or heterosexual sex, for that matter.
The real issue in not the sinfulness of homosexuality but the all-sufficiency of God.
You can condemn homosexuality or any sin, for that matter, all day long. But, without something more glorious and more satisfying from which to choose, temporal pleasures, regardless of the consequences, will always win the affections of their suitor. So, as a regenerated, celibate gay man who is still not attracted to women in any way shape or form; a man who lives by himself and is forced to watch hetero couples live and love each and every day; A man who by choice, wakes up every day to an empty bed and goes to bed every night alone. A man who has chosen to never again enjoy the kiss of a man, the touch of a man. A man who can never again be "in love," I urge you to stop this ridiculous bickering about things of which you have no understanding and obviously no compassion and start presenting an irresistible Christ to the gay men and women whom God has placed within the range of your effective will. You do this by proving His great value through the way you live your life--the way you suffer--the way you love. Your words are cheap and disingenuous if you don't have a life to back them up! Don’t tell gay folks what Jesus should mean to them until you show them that He is all-sufficient enough for you!
I thought that I had found acceptance. What I found was deception. I just didn’t know how to come back to God. My prayer from the time I was 7 was, “God, please change the way I feel. Make me “straight.” It never happened.
30 years later, I discovered Dr. Piper and Jonathan Edwards and my eyes were opened to the glory and the majesty of Jesus Christ. Now celibacy is achievable. I was so enraptured with the worth of Jesus that nothing—sex, companionship or human affection, compared with the worth of knowing Him. This only happened because my eyes were opened to a God who was more satisfying that all those things. Unfortunately most churches don’t present him that way. Probably because they God they worship isn’t that satisfying in their own lives. Here is my advice to pastors and do-gooder Christians: If your God can’t satisfy the longings in your own life (and only you know whether He does or doesn’t) then shut up! You can’t convince me of something you haven’t experienced yourself. Today when I speak to gay men (and I do every day), they see a man who is overwhelmed by the sheer majesty of his creator. They look in my eyes and see a man who understands their situation. They see a man who is undeniably satisfied with His God and they want that living water because it’s obvious that I have been at the well with the Master.
Should unrepentant homosexuals be preaching from the pulpit?
Should then, unrepentant adulterers (same sex, because as far as the Bible goes, a practicing homosexual is in an adulterous relationship).
Should an unrepentant liar? Thief? Murderer? Idolaters? The Greedy (as defined by Websters, this is someone having a selfish desire for wealth and possessions - and the Bible says that to whom much is given much is expected, greed is not the same as having ample)? Would you say that ANY unrepentant sinner should have the opportunity to stand in the Lords pulpits and preach the Word of God and teach the Word of God and counsel with the help of the Word of God and marry according to the Word of God and Baptize in the Word of God and offer communion and take communion in submission to the Word of God (when the Bible says that you drink the wrath of God when you take communion in an unworthy manner you are guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord).
I would just like confirmation from these people who hate what Piper says that they also hate what the Bible says. Regardless of whether or not you think you could have said it any better than Piper, the Word of God is impenetrable. If you are offended by Piper, you are offended by God. This tornado, as far as I am concerned, was a true warning from God. It ought to be heeded as such.
One point needs to be made, though: the ELCA is not, in any historically meaningful sense, a Lutheran church body. To varying degrees, its predecessor churches abandoned the Lutheran confessions- and certainly the sola scriptura- even before the merger that formed the ELCA.
We who remain Christians in the Lutheran tradition want to clearly disassociate ourselves from the abomination in Minneapolis.
http://www.crosswalk.com/1383847/
His theology is consistent. God gave him cancer to lead him to repentance. God sent the tornado to call church leaders to repentance. Piper's not treating the tornado event any differently than he treats the events in his personal life. Both acts are an expression of God's mercy in calling sinners to repentance.
I will be in prayer for you - for courage and divine protection. It is clear from many of these posts, that there is a huge spiritual battle raging here. Jezebel is angry and so are the false prophets of Baal. As you know, we don't fight against flesh and blood but rather principalities, powers, wicked spirits that deceive and control the mind of those who will not embrace the cross, and refuse to deny self. May God forgive his own people from loving sin more than Him, and have mercy on all of us. I am also reminded of the warnings in scripture of how dangerous it will be in the last days, where people are lovers of pleasure MORE than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but no power against sin. We are truly the Laodicean church, poor, blind, naked. We don't even hear the Lord's voice anymore and we stone His sent ones. God have mercy.
Philippians 3:17-19 (New Living Translation) Dear brothers and sisters, pattern your lives after mine, and learn from those who follow our example. 18 For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 They are headed for destruction. Their god is their appetite, they brag about shameful things, and they think only about this life here on earth.
2Pet. 1:2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
Mark 9:50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
Heb. 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
"Lutherans are trying to allow the community to determine how far the love of God stretches"
I thought that decision was aready taken by God himself - from one nail-marked hand to the other.
You could take the last phrase and just say, "well, Jesus died for all, and all will go to Heaven!".
Dr. Piper is not heralding himself as God, he is simply saying what Jesus said: God is bringing His wrath, so repent while His faithfulness, his Hesed, His covenant, His love, is still over us and still bearing with us with great patience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5GnzD1Fp6I
This has got to be the most anti-intellectual statement I've ever seen.
God bless.
Having lost a son in a car accident I look to a just loving God in all of my encounters with others.
Sorry for your son man. That's tough, but He is good! Glad you still look to a just and loving God. God bless.
Isaiah 59 says,
59 Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save,
or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
2 but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear.
. . . . .
9 Therefore justice is far from us,
and righteousness does not overtake us;
we hope for light, and behold, darkness,
and for brightness, but we walk in gloom.
10 We grope for the wall like the blind;
we grope like those who have no eyes;
we stumble at noon as in the twilight,
among those in full vigor we are like dead men.
11 We all growl like bears;
we moan and moan like doves;
we hope for justice, but there is none;
for salvation, but it is far from us.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before you,
and our sins testify against us;
for our transgressions are with us,
and we know our iniquities:
13 transgressing, and denying the Lord,
and turning back from following our God,
speaking oppression and revolt,
conceiving and uttering from the heart lying words.
14 Justice is turned back,
and righteousness stands far away;
for truth has stumbled in the public squares,
and uprightness cannot enter.
15 Truth is lacking,
and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Is 59:9-15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
Now that is not to say that every "bad thing" that happens is God judging someone for what their doing wrong. Some events might be put there to test our faith...just look at Job!
Pastor Piper, thank God for your faithfulness in these evil days.
Although many here have bristled and jeered, I say Bravo, Dr Piper! I cannot help but see this as a sign. Those who have ears, let them hear.
Pastor Piper :) ... I enjoy your blog and writings. This seems to be one of the more provocative posts in a while :).
Should I teach my children that there are no consequences to their actions?
If the tornado was not meant as Piper stated, but was just a mere coincidence, should I not be too concerned about fearing God?
Perhaps close to the same odds that one man - Jesus of Nazareth - could fulfill all of the prophecies of the Savior written over several centuries? OK - so maybe God didn't speak in the way that so many who demand proof expect. Even in Jesus' day he didn't either. Recall (Luke 16:30-31 NIV) "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
That this message should be directed to the church - (Rom 3:18-19 NIV) "There is no fear of God before their eyes." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Don't put God in a box as though any of us have the ability to think like God - only let God's word speak for itself, and if the lightening strikes close to the matter - take it to heart. And be thankful he doesn't destroy every Nineveh at the moment of their sin or none of us could have survived this long. God is gracious, but his grace is intended to lead us to repentance.
As a south Minneapolis pastor who loves gay people (and is friends with many) and yet thinks homosexuality is a sin, I am sad and disappointed this was written.
This is different from most real evangelical groups where all members are pro-gun, anti-women's rig-- I mean anti-abortion, anti-gay, overly preachy, and throwing around the phrase I've seen in these comments "hell is real".
Well, I'm sorry if your god disagrees with the way I live my life or my gay friends live theirs. But I waited for a sign for 17 years, so I suppose he won't mind me trotting off to the fires. Good bye :-)
Notice Piper did say the warning was for us all!
Or, maybe there is biblical precedent to interpret events (natural, political, etc.) as one of the ways that God instructs, warns, corrects, and judges His people for willfully going against His revealed will. I think there is...and this is ultimately what Piper is doing.
Granted, it's an uncomfortable thing to think that God might deal with His own people in this way. We might think it unfair and mean. But if God is willing to allow us to die or kill us while serving Him (Jesus, Paul, Peter, Stephen, James, and countless others who have been martyred throughout the centuries) then why is it unreasonable to think he might even kill us for working contrary to Him? Job seemed to understand this about God: "Though he slay me, I will hope in him; yet I will argue my ways to his face."
One of the most insightful comments was made by jeffcruz66:
"Many would read this and say to themselves that God hates homosexuals, so He sent the tornado, but it is worth noting that He did not send the tornado to a group of homosexuals.
Rather He sent it to a group of HIS people set to condone/endorse homosexual activity
within the church leadership.
Big difference."
Agreed.
Did he destory a bank to warn us about storing up our treasures here on earth?
Did he destroy a place of worship that disagrees with the Christian faith all together?
And in the recent past, when a tornado has struck and area why did you not point out any of the destructions as warnings. I get theconnection between the ELCA meeting in regards to homosexuality and the tornado. however far fetched i personally think it is.
Bottom line is you will find what you are looking for....and the church continues to find ways to paint targets on the backs of homosexuals.
Be consistent in your parallels of this magnitude.
Now, perhaps this new comment section on the blog is not a good idea. ;)
Some of the comments are just evil, yes, but I find encouragement reading the one from those who love and treasure the truth of Gods sufficient word, who is will be blessed forever.
I do agree. It's a good place for dialogue. My comment was more in jest (hence the "wink"), because there will always be those "evil" comments, as you mentioned.
Jeromy, if you interpret 1 Corinthians 6 and Luke 13 some other way, I'd like to hear what you have to say.
james
And it is these sorts of comments and judgments that piss people off.
Who are we to say if this was an act of God or doubt that it wasnt?
We are not God...let Him do His job.
John 3:16
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all those who practice it have a good understanding..." Psalm 111:10
You're spot on!!
they have sown the wind, they will reap the whirlwind (hosea 8:7)
There is no way that this was random weather event that occured at the very hour that the ELCA was discussing and voting to approve Homosexual Clergy.
That photo of the steeple is the new icon for the ELCA.
You can context scripture anyway you'd like. The original texts have been translated time and time again by scholars and influenced by homophobic leaders of nations/empires that would simply kill anyone who didn't agree. I would love for someone to translate the entire bible true to form. I think we'd see an incredible difference.
Jesus came to show love and God's grace. He will judge everyone independantly based on their lives. You don't need to judge homosexuals. You have been commanded to love, not judge these fellow creations of God. Do it.
Let God judge when the time comes.
Don't get me wrong, I believe some of what you've said to be true; however, when the Holy Spirit moves us to repentance it's not necessarily ONLY during the time when Christ enters our heart. I still need to repent when I sin (even after I've accepted Christ as my saviour).
Each so-called natural disaster just might have my name and your name on it, too. Our merciful Creator-Redeemer (in Christ) does not and will not guarantee us the next second's breath.
Do you think that these homosexuality condoners were worse sinners than all the other people on this planet, because they suffered the tornado's rampage? Of course not. And, I'm not so sure that Pastor Piper's blog post here is suggesting so. His message on this subject seems to be echoing Jesus: "Unless you repent, you will all likewise suffer (though possibly differing in kind/degree."
Tornados and hurricanes and earthquakes and typhoons and ... are not random, but purposeful. I just wonder if the very God in whose world we rebel against him (with the very breath he gives), just might be warning us with such wind and waves: "Wake up!"
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? Let us not neglect this Christ, but flee to him for never-ending refuge!
His conclusion is valid. Every natural disaster, every consequence of sin is a time for everyone to repent. There is something far worse than a tornado or a falling tower waiting for the unrepentant - homosexual, greedy, pick your sin - it's called hell. That was Jesus' point in Luke 13. No one talks about hell more than Jesus in the Bible, yet he came to deliver us from it. Still people reject him... see Rom 1.
May all the people repent who have departing from the living God and turn to him at an acceptable time.
I praise God and kneel down to bow before this awesome God who is in control of our lives wherever we are and still calls out repent and live why should you die?
Mr. Piper, you need to get off your High Pulpit of Moral Superiority and do a little homework before you go pointing your finger at another denomination. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I think you actually need to *read* what the Lutherans were discussing. It's actually very well-written, researched in Biblical fact and prayerful consideration.
I'm with the ELCA--we're not perfect, but we're trying to become more Biblical based, Holy Spirit-attuned, and better neighbors.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Tast...
God causes/allows disasters. Disasters are a warning to us to repent. In my observation of Piper, he rarely suggests disasters are specific judgements against specific people or sins. Instead he suggests they are warnings to all of us. He goes a bit farther in this article about the Tornado, but keeps the same qualifiers -- it is a warning to all of us, not just the ECLA. God's transformation is needed for both those in liberal churches, like the ECLA, and conservative, like Bethlehem Baptist.
Would you like to question God's interpretation (so to speak) on incidents such as this? Is Jesus not saying things like this need to wake us up to repentance and joy in Him?
I agree with some of the comments: Pastor Piper could never know what this tornado means, but I feel like he has given a fair interpretation of the Scriptures.
It sounds like some of you are questions Jesus' control (as the sovereign ruler of the universe) over weather? Do you really want to do that? Do you really want to question His power?
I surely don't.
in Christ,
CL
On another point...if it's okay to put homosexuals in the pulpit, then how about unrepentant murderers, or unrepentant thieves? Once we begin to move the line....where does it stop?
let's keep it relevant please, huh?
Also, do you think all of ELCA is homosexual simply for "considering" a social statement on sexuality and therefore deserving of God's wrath? That would be pretty naive. I am an "orthodox" Episcopalian who is troubled by the recent and similar events at my own church's general convention this summer, but I would have been equally troubled if you came to a similar conclusion had an earthquake hit Anaheim at the time, especially because a good number of orthodox bishops and delegates at the convention voted *against* my denomination's own similar considerations regarding sexuality.
I thank God that He still speaks in these ways. I hope they will be startled and have ears to hear and eyes to see. That picture says it all for me. Only let us pray that these people will understand (hear) His (saving) heart more clearly through His Son (and His Body), because that is the only hearing that brings redemption. We are in strange times.
Thank you Father that you care about this issue and these people!
I kinda think thats the case with all accidents.
Let me ask you this though, if it had hit YOUR church, would you pray? Or would you just accept god's wrath against you?
I was interested on how you were going to cover this when you posted on your Twitter and think that you did a great job. I pray that God uses this to convict us.
For me making scriptural condemnation on this issue erodes the peace of God needed to bring people to Christ. A gun will not bring a murderer to reform, but it can end his life. I think God the Holy Spirit is fully capable of pronouncing judgment, wrath, and conviction of sin. He is the only qualified judge of the quick and the dead, of sin and righteousness. Regarding the doctrine or a moment, would Jesus send a tornado to correct scriptural misinterpretation, or would He send revival and restoration? The greatest response is love and grace applied with truth. The preach Jesus Christ crucified, salvation and His death burial and resurrection. Do we love the ELCA or not?
Would that we all could have eyes to see what is so clear. Would that we all could have ears to hear such truth. Sadly it isn't so. For many among us are blind though they claim to see and are deaf though they claim to hear.
"Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?"
"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word."
"Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
That's just it -- we ALL say that scripture "clearly states" things -- and, it doesn't! Yes, you believe that it clearly states one thing; but, as I stated earlier, other earnest, humble, faithful people come to different conclusions than you. If scripture were clear, we would not have so many denominations, believing it says different things. We are all, even within the same church walls, doing our best to try to discern what the core message of God's word is. And we arrive at different answers. I will not tell you to change your convictions; I would ask that you offer the same grace and understand that other devout, earnest, humble believers are also doing their best, and simply disagree. There must be room for us to come together as a community of believers with different opinions on what the scriptures mean, without tearing apart the body of Christ as a whole.
As far as the ELCA's teaching, I'm not one of them so I don't have first hand knowledge. I have been Southern Baptist and doctrinally agree with most of Calvinist tradition, so I can be critical of John Piper on his interpretation. I assume all denominations by the sheer fact that they are of human origin are flawed. Jesus life and ministry is the only cornerstone of orthodoxy. He did not die so that we could find reasons to judge each other, but that we would go, seek and save the lost. Judgement starts with ourselves, and the Spirit convicts and guides human wisdom. I believe God will judge us first on how we love others while bearing the name of Jesus.
Besides, I do recall Paul and other apostles being pretty rough with churches who were totally out of line. Church leaders who justify any sin need to be rebuked and warned lovingly.
I hope that he apologizes and removes this immediately. If not it will only make Piper and the church even more out of touch with the hurting and broken people of the world!
I found that this article tred carefully the path of truth. I hesitate to ascribe God's moral purposes to every act of nature, but there is enough of a correlation here that we should notice and be sobered by it. And that is just how far you go. Thank you Pastor.
When I first heard about the tornado and the hit on that area, I admit I had to smile and believe that God truly does have a sense of humor but beyond that I know that he is an awesome God and His ways are not our ways.
Not necessarily though it doesn't mean he is necessarily wrong either. What Dr. Piper said of Scripture is true. If one connects the dots the conclusion can make sense. Whether or not this was an explicit warning aimed directly at the ELCA isn't known. What is known, however, is that all the above do apply to the ELCA's situation and therefore a call to repentance is in order.
Why did God allow this? We don't claim to know all His reasons. The obvious stuff we can talk about. No one was seriously hurt. We needed more room to expand and build a school. The people who went through the storm came out stronger and with more trust in God.
Storms come to all. Those who build upon the rock of God's Word and obedience to it will stand. We are standing today by the grace of God to believe in His faithfulness and provision.
Would be interested to hear your opinion on this. Thanks.
FYI, ELCA is not Lutheran, and they are not "the Lutherans". The Lutherans are ELS and WELS, the LCMS, the AALC, the Free Lutherans, the Lutheran Brethren, and even the Evangelical Free and Evangelical Covenant (Evangelical = Lutheran in Europe, for we are "the Evangelical Movement of the Augsburg Confession). We do not enjoy being tarred with the actions of an apostate leadership of a very mixed body.
12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Your article is obviously cutting!
Suzanne Willmuth Jonesboro Arkansas
This also makes me reflect on the kindness of God in allowing a little more time because he desires all to come to repentance.
So many of us value your words and insight and so there is a level of responsibility that is on your shoulders. While it is ignorance that would cause those that sit under your teaching to repeat these speculations without the very important nuances you have made, I think it is important that intelligent and respected teachers should consider what they are about to say and decide if it is furthering of the gospel or would hinder those hearing. In this case, I think this speculation is harmful rather than edifying. Too many men who were not great teachers or even worthy of the respect have spoken out of turn about natural disasters (or terrorist acts) as acts of God's wrath. While what you put forth is a million miles away from what they have said, in our current world climate, most will not hear your very vital differences (nuances) and instead will put you on par with the others.
I suspect that it is difficult for you as you are excellent in your thoughts and I continue to find your teaching both encouraging and thought-provoking. My life is certainly better than it would be otherwise because of your boldness to say things that are controversial and yet incredibly godly. It is only my opinion that you erred with this article (not in that what you say may or may not be true, but in that perhaps it is best not shared with the world). It could just as well be that I am incorrect.
Stop trying to use a natural phenomenon to encourage discrimination, and maybe consider instead that your job as a Christian is to love God and love your neighbor. I don't think that barring people from serving because of their sexuality is love. Your attitude is way more sinful than loving someone of the same gender.
This is why I'm not a Christian. End of story.
Evading Christianity does not account for the existence of evil. Every system of faith must find an explanation. The sovereignty of God is the only good explanation. However, that means that you must accept that some things that you perceive as "good" are not indeed good.
No one wants to admit that he is wrong.
~ A sarcastic person has a superiority complex that can be cured only by the honesty of humility ~ Lawrence G. Lovasik
He did not say the tornado was punishment, but a warning of future judgment because of sin. All disasters serve as that kind of general warning when we are thinking biblically.
Was this a warning because of this specific convention and its subject matter? We shouldn't discount the possibility. This should cause us all to wake from our slumber concerning the coming wrath of an Almighty God.
I'm probably on the same side of you with regards to the homosexuality debate in the ELCA, but this kind of thinking is so dangerous (and exasperating). It smacks of Falwell and Robertson. I'm disappointed.
I know you don't need it-perhaps being a man you have a much thicker skin than I-but my heart goes out to you for the harshness of those opposed. Whatever happened to the understanding,
"2 Tim. 2:25
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth."
And that, Paul speaks to those who believe others are "taken captive by the devil to do his will."
Me thinks they doth protest too loudly...
grace and peace,
Martha
Just sayin'.
In fact, Don Bromley, who first commented, (while his comment was errant in that this article isn't overlooking the sin of greed nor God's concern with such sin in leadership in the church but it's the specific and pointed vote that was being cast by this gathering about a core doctrinal issue), does have a good point in that the love of money within the Church is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. If you'd like to read something on this, read "The End of the American Gospel Enterprise" written by Dr. Michael L. Brown http://theravenhillchallenge.wordpress.com/abou... which speaks specifically about this troubling issue.
The building did not fall in on them! We are all sinners, and struggling and fighting against our extant sin nature which is far different from endorsing it. The church does not ever reject sinners in whom Paul was the worst. Maybe not worse then David. But we do not endorse sin, and an elbow in the side from the Lord is a reminder of the difference.
Mike
Perhaps God should just tell us through direct present day verbal communication what it is He desires, instead of being so subtle as to leave us guessing as to what He might want or whether He had anything to do with it at all (or whether He even exists).
Where do you want me to ship your Bible?
The Bible itself says that it is God-inspired. We claim it because God said it. Perhaps you should study the Bible more and the remember that man's knowledge comes from either the Spirit or the faulty Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
Do you think its possible that several texts could be written over a long period of time and then someone later would claim that it was actually written by God and puts that in his letter, or is that just impossible to fathom? Do you treat the claims of competing religious texts in the same manner?
According to Biblical history, God sent enormous plagues on an entire nation, parted seas, and sent holy fire from heaven to burn alters; all with the express purpose of demonstrating that He was the one true God. Now He seems extremely shy, and nearly everything He supposedly wrote about the origins of man, the earth, and the universe, has been demonstrated to be false. So since all the supernatural disappeared, and the only evidence that it ever took place is bound in stories written in cultures that were rife with such supernatural explanations and stories in the world (ever read anything else from the millennium besides the Bible? Do you take those events as factual as well?), it seems extremely likely if not just common sense to realize those stories are myths. So if God is there and firmly against homosexual behavior, perhaps He should be a little more present, as perhaps described in the OT, and very clearly and with normal human communication explain His desires. The whole tornado thing (I'll quote myself) "seems to be a very indirect way to say it, opens up even more questions since tornadoes have damaged or destroyed buildings owned by Calvinist Baptists in the past, and is indistinguishable from whether God had anything to do with it at all (or even exists)."
"remember that man's knowledge comes from either the Spirit or the faulty Tree of Knowledge of good and evil."
How about observation and experiment? Do you know where the understanding of electricity, silicon, semi-conductors, transistors, operating systems, and blogging software came from making this conversation possible? Was it the Holy Spirit who whispered it to us?
I have faith that the one true God did inspire the whole Bible. I believe that the other myths out there that are similar are in fact Lucifer copying God's original plan. I believe God's form of revelation differs now that all of the Earth can come to God through faith rather then one race. If God wanted to speak out loud He could but then where would faith, and trust be?
Have you read the Bible as one who can spiritual discern the spiritual truths? or one who is negatively emotional about God? Do you think God can not speak indirectly about a topic? If you or I can then God surely can.
How does your observation and experiment prove or disprove my statement? Even if it did not come from the Holy Spirit, it still can come form the faulty tree.
I think you should do a little research. It's not just according "to Biblical history".
The origin of the Bible is God. It is a historical book that is backed by archeology, and a prophetic book that has lived up to all of its claims thus far. The Bible is God's letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers over a period of over 1,600 years. The claim of divine inspiration may seem dramatic (or unrealistic to some), but a careful and honest study of the biblical scriptures will show them to be true. Powerfully, the Bible validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). God decided to use prophecy as His primary test of divine authorship, and an honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the supernatural origin of the Bible. Skeptics must ask themselves, "Would the gambling industry even exist if people could really tell the future?" Again, no other holy book comes even close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its credibility, authenticity and divine authorship.
I don't know how you can claim that "nearly everything He supposedly wrote about the origins of man, the earth, and the universe, has been demonstrated to be false." If fact, if you do your research, you would see that more and more, there is much science out there that supports creationism. And, I hope you aren't talking about evolution. Ask an evolutinist about the fossil record. And if you think science has a better explanation, check out these quotes from Albert Einstein--
"The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."
"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books—-a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects."
El_Shaddai_son,
If God wanted to speak out loud He could but then where would faith, and trust be?
When I was a believer, I did not define faith as beliving in something without evidence. It was trusting in God to save me from my sins via the death and ressurectino of Jesus. It was dependence on God. It was built on real evidence, and I believed God wanted trust out of me, not to know he was there even though He was hiding. Yet somehow that is exactly what it becomes when people say what you just said. That God somehow wants to hide because the "faith" he wants for us it to know something is true without ever showing us.
Have you read the Bible as one who can spiritual discern the spiritual truths? or one who is negatively emotional about God?
Most of my life, absolutely yes. Even now I am not negatively emotional about God. I'm just fairly convinced He is not there.
PeeWeeQ (interesting name),
I think you should do a little research.
I did. That is when I began to doubt my faith.
It is a historical book that is backed by archeology,
No it is not.
Powerfully, the Bible validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed).
Have you ever actually looked at those prophecies, I mean, really looked at them? What does an NT writer say is being fulfilled, and then go back and read what the OT writer is talking about? A good many of the time, nothing is being predicted. It is not even a prophecy, but the NT writer justs picks it up anyway. That doesn't take supernatural knowledge. Daniel was a long time favorite of mine, but it is clearly written after the fact. Isaiah 7, QUITE CLEARLY is talking about a baby to be born in Hezekiah's time (as a sign to Hezekiah himself) and it didn't even say Virgin. I mean it. Really look at it. Or lets put it this way, tell me which is the BEST prophecy that quite CLEARLY shows something THAT WE KNOW was written in the past that was fulfilled without any commentary by a present author on how it was fulfilled (since anyway after the fact can make up whatever they want).
If fact, if you do your research, you would see that more and more, there is much science out there that supports creationism.
Nice try.
And, I hope you aren't talking about evolution. Ask an evolutinist about the fossil record.
If you get nothing else out of this, please at least do one thing. Get the book, " Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters by Donald R. Prothero and Carl Buell". There you will find a plethora of transitional fossils, and you will see that many people either are lying to you or haven't the slightest clue what they are talking about, probably the ladder.
Albert Einstein did not believe in a personal God. Its amazing that Christians still use his misunderstood quotes to back there side.
He did. Exodus 20:18-19 for example. Or the whole incarnation thing before we killed Him for telling us all (self-righteous religious folk and licentious sinners) to repent because God's wrath was coming for us.
It didn't change anything then...why would it now? Most demands for a sign from Him are actually a veiled protest at His lordship over our lives (Mark 8:11-12).
In other words, let's not be "naturalists" and accept provable scientific explanations for natural events. Rather, let's regress to the superstitious level of people who believed that solar eclipses were caused by god eating the sun, and sacrificed humans to Make It Stop. It must be comforting to think that the world conforms to your set of beliefs and not to the equally fervent beliefs of others. (Hey, why shouldn't tornados be caused by Shiva rather than Yaweh?)
Faith is one thing. Arrant stupidity is quite another. And when one looks at where most tornados occur, isn't it the Midwest and the pious Bible Belt, rather than those sinful places on the coasts where LGBT people have their rights? Maybe your god is using the passing winds to protest intolerance?
Matt 5:31-32 "his wife" ; "let him give her"; "causes her"
There are more teachings about marriage from our Lord in the gospels and they clearly denote the pattern of one man and one woman consist of a marriage per the design of God. The premise is also false that because Jesus didn't explicitly emphasize or belabor a particular sin then this is at least a case for ambivalence or sanction on the part of God. No where in scripture is there any sanction for homosexuality....no where.
We know that Jesus didn't specifically decry abortion, but we know implicitly that God cares and loves for each person no matter what their chronological age...just as you hope He does for you.
While he corrected the misundestandings of Jewish leaders on several points of doctrine, his Jewish audience would know exactly what he was condeming by fornication. Leviticus 18 and 20 stuff. Furthermore, Paul is frequently explaining the teaching of Jesus. Paul lists a similar "sin list" where he spells out what Jesus means by fornication. Jesus doesn't condemn "soft ones," he condemns the sexually immoral. Folks try to say that those terms for homosexuality mean something else, but they can't tell you what it means. It's unclear. Never mind that you have a text that puts together 2 words that only fit together if you are talking about homosexual behavior. Be honest. Deal with the real God.
If you love your false God and hate the real one, how is judgment day going to go for you because God knows?
Reading TDS' comments, whether Pastor Piper should be called a "prophet" (like you indicate) or not is not the point I think. My question to TDS would be if God is not in control of the wind, then who ultimately is. One alternative explanation would be the Devil caused the tornado. It is unlikely in this case. However, who is in control here. Isaiah 45:12 says "I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host"
Regarding the sin part in this post, I heard a Pastor once say "God acceptance of the sinner does mean approval of his sin" That's where Luke 13:4-5 speaks clearly of the sinner's action.
I find it appallingly offensive and naïve when fellow Christians make claims that natural disasters are God's punishment to whomever we deem to be sinners. If I thought that God intervened this way every time I saw a disaster in the world, he would not be the gracious God I know and love.
Here is my aim at clarifying his words with a summary:
- We ALL are sinners in the EXACT same boat (ie - under God's wrath).
- Through Christ we can be forgiven if we repent of sin and trust Christ.
- The Church should be a place where ALL REPENTANT sinners are loved and nurtured (and that includes Dr. Piper).
- The tornado in Minneapolis (as well as any calamity), by virtue of Christ's teaching about the tower in Siloam, should warn ALL OF US (including the ELCA) about not repenting of sin.
Dr. Piper could have just as easily written a post that said (had the tornado struck my house, and had he known a sin that was tempting me to stumble):
"Brad, that tornado was God's gentle warning to you to not give into sin. Listen to Jesus' teaching on the tower at Siloam."
Then, the people convening at the ELCA could have read that post and said, "We too, like Brad, need to heed the warning that was the tornado that struck his home."
I hope this helps.
Grace and peace.
Without direct quote can you really tell me with 100% certainty that God made that rule?
Furthermore, whether you want to accept it or not, the Christian/Jewish God is not the only God and to say that is prejudicial and hateful to those who were raised in other cultures with other beliefs. Believing in Hinduism, Taoism, Buddism or the like doesn't make you wrong it makes you different. Believing that the Christian/Jewish God is the only God for YOU is totally ok tho, just don't expect everyone to agree with you.
And he looks on them with pity even as they crucify him again and again with their prejudice and bigotry, as you, sir, are doing here.
May God have more mercy on you than you would have on those you brand as sinners; and may he continue to work in your heart until you discover the true freedom his forgiveness, mercy and compassion bring to us all.
1) Who is Jesus Christ? God
2)Who flooded the world because of the wickedness of men?God
3)Who is coming again to judge and burn the world with fire? Jesus Christ!
So much for your theory.
Jeremiah 8:9
The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord, so what wisdom is in them?
Now is that the same Jesus that said he was sending the Holy Spirit "to convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment"?
In Jesus Name.
Why do you feel the need to imply that the hand of God is smiting someone in particular, when we all deserve to be smitten?
Our response to the loss caused by the tornado should be to help the recovery. Judgment will come in the end, and it's our calling to leave it to God. We should feel sympathy for our brothers because we could just have easily have experienced the same thing. I don't understand what left and right wing has to do with any of this. "Natural" disasters should remind us all of our humanity and UNITE us, not drive us farther apart through self-righteous smirks and "well, you deserved it" attitudes.
Has Piper been called to be God's prophet to the Lutheran's? Perhaps he has. His equitable abhorrence of sin and universal call to repentance surely smacks of prophetic candor.
And yet, I am left wondering: If God wanted to send a clear message to disrupts someone who planned something as evil as a false proclamation of human sexuality, why not follow through? Why let these people survive a near-calamity, rather than wipe them out? Did they in fact repent, and receive God's mercy?
Is it possible God was sending a message the other way? Perhaps He who controls the wind wanted to reassure the Lutherans of Minneapolis that the storms of this life, the trials brought on by those who oppose them, may have strength to tear down buildings and destroy what is deemed valuable to this world (like ornamental steeples). But the God of heaven will prevent ultimate destruction coming upon those who declare their convictions and remain true to their faith.
Or maybe unpredictable weather patterns should not become a basis for theo-political pronouncements. All of this is quite muddled, and I cannot presume to make a judgment on any side.
But I must add a final caveat: there is no doubt here that Piper has made his judgment, and he has published it before a broad audience. He has even spoken as God's interpreter. If he is such, then he need not heed my cavils. But if he has falsely portrayed himself as God's prophet, if he has misrepresented his own words as those from the Divine, then no degree of biblical warrant or evangelical clout can justify him. Consider this my test of his spirit (1 John 4:1). And if the truth is not in him, I bid him return to the Truth and silence his tongue of lies. It does not become a servant of the Truth.
Any time you make room for sin and do not agree with God to "be separate" and to be "holy" you expose a love of sin and a hatred for God. You can't love both. You must contend for the truth of Gods Word or you contend for humanism by default.
There is absolutely no sanction for homosexual behavior or any immorality in the Bible. If a heterosexual person is to be chaste and moral so can a homosexual. There is no question that marriage is designed by God to be a man married to a woman. There is no covering for homosexual immorality in a man sanctioned marriage in the sight of God. Man did not create man and woman...God did. Man did not then describe what a marriage is...God did. These simple and easily understood biblical truths are twisted and perverted anytime anyone loves their sin and hates God. It really is always a debate about who is in authority, God or man....who is really the one who sets the standards and rules for human behavior.
It seems we basically agree but could you help me understand the intent of "But either Christ is our Savior or He isn't." as it relates to sanctioning and acknowledging habitual, unrepentant advocates for homosexuality as true Christians. In addition, that they would be considered qualified to be leaders and teachers in the Body of Christ. Thanks.
Thanks for the reply. Sanctification by the power of the Holy Ghost is our hope. All of us have lust to fight against...resist by grace. The pride of life is also listed in 1 John as a common sinful weakness. Salvation is promised to those who overcome. Deny self, not cater to the flesh. This is possible because of God's grace. We don't rewrite the Biblical pattern for human behavior that pleases God because we don't agree with it.
This entire discussion, again, is always about who is in charge....God or man. We are instructed to love the person while we reprove the sin. Look at John 5.14. The Bible clearly points out what sin is and tells us that the wages of sin is death. The Holy Ghost will convict a person of sin as a grace to the sinner.
Now we have supposed Christian denominations condoning sin. This is outrageous and needs to be reproved and rebuked.
God loves me and convicts me over sin, for my own good, and I love Him for it. If He let me do whatever I wanted to do and it damned me would that be love?
ps: It seems that Exodus Int. is a solid Christian work.
As in burn at the stake, eh ?
Could this thread be any stranger ?
This is where Biblical literalism leads: Away from love, away from radical welcome, away from (dare I say it) reason and reality, into the hardest recesses of the heart -- the place that stakes an exclusive claim to salvation, a salvation based on legalistic adherence to every jot and tittle of a narrowly prescribed and actually perverted doctrine.
This thread is breaking my heart. It is exasperating, as a practicing Christian, to be associated in the mind of the world with this sort of vocal and bibliolatrous religiosity.
If the Bible is not to be taken literally then why did Jesus quote the Bible literally and fulfill the hundreds of prophecies that literally describe His purpose, His identity, His actions and experiences and confirming events? My prayer is that you would pursue the truth and be honest with the evidence. Pray for yourself that the Holy Ghost would lead you into truth. That is a huge part of what He does for us. These issues always come down to the same accusation that satan pronounced to Eve:"Hath God said?"
Certainly we can know what behavior is pleasing to God as a true believer. The opposition demonstrated by the defiant to the prohibitions against immorality stated in the Bible are clearly an indicator of how deeply the fall of man has affected us. The better question that should be asked by God fearing individuals is whether a certain behavior has any elements that could be viewed as opposing the Word of God. Of course we would have to believe the Bible literally and know what it says. We are the ones who are blinded by sin, not God. We are the ones who must aggressively cooperate with the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost. We never want to be involved with any behavior that is clearly condemned directly or by implication in the Bible. There is no question that homosexual behavior is one of these.
Jesus said in the last days there would be those who kill the true believers and would think they are doing God a service. The idea that you would oppose any doctrine that can be proven in scripture without really much effort should give you some concern.
Thanks for your time.
How can a person who is practicing homosexuality claim to worship anything besides his own lusts? I am not denying struggles, but genuine faith always has works.
If you come upon a body by the side of the road and he has no pulse and no breath, he is dead. If you come upon a person who has no spiritual pulse (Christian way of thinking about sexuality) or breath (Christian way of behaving) how can you say that he is a Christian?
This brings to mind the Book of Job. No Christian has yet come up with a good answer to the questions Job posed to God and that God dodged: why do the virtuous suffer? Why do the wicked prosper? I suspect that's because there is no good answer to the problem presented by an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfectly loving God who allows good and innocent people to suffer and permits evil people to prosper, grow old and die in peace and comfort.
For those who disagree and agree, what are you basing your decision on? Opinions of mere men and women, or the Word of God?
As Piper says in his poem on Job, "Beware God is kind in ways that will not fit your mind"
What if the people this meeting we're all driving $20,000 cars and a tornado hit? Would this post have been written?
I am reminded all over again why I left the institutional church...The church worries and fusses so much over homosexuality...yet ignors other equally grievous sins. Didn't Jesus speak specifically to the sin of divorce...yet we rarely talk about it in this context...
~"And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
It seems as if Jesus is saying in some contexts...divorce is committing adultery ( unless this is one of those places you wouldn't read the BIble literally...but the passages allegedly addressing homosexuality you would?)
Adultery...if I am not mistaken is in the BIG TEN lists of thou shalt nots... So...if you are divorced and remarried...you are an adulterer according to Jesus?
By this reasoning...it looks like it's not just the homosexuals that aren't going to inherit the kingdom...but also the hundreds of thousand of Divorced and remarried abiding in an on-going adulterous relationship as well?
Confused...
Isaiah 46:9-11 (New International Version)
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do.
Actually, I believe there is scripture that references to Satan as the "prince of the power of the air". I do otherwise agree with your comments.
Man, my s.o. and I were just reminiscing today about the tsunami and 9/11 being pinned on "teh gays" by various so-called preachers.
No wonder my s.o. looks so askance at my churchgoing. Rhetoric like this puts a demonic face on Christianity.
I've always wondered what denomination Jesus belongs to and where does the benefit of order and church government end and accommodation for compromise and pride of life begin.
If genuine leadership in the body of Christ can not speak to the activities and decisions of groups of people who claim to be in the body of Christ then much of the commentary recorded since the Apostle Paul is irrelevant. How do you propose to defend the faith and doctrine of biblical Christianity when the membership of heretical groups are unwilling or unable to understand and accept biblical doctrine?
I have read several of your books. You are an intelligent man. FYI... THIS was not the best testimony to your intelligence.
In fact, most people who call out sin in themselves and others will be deemed as unintelligent. Thanks for putting the Gospel before your image.
Mt 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Try to stay hot for the Lord in these days.
Suggesting providence is not claiming absolute knowledge of it. The facts are--as Piper identified it--there is sin, there was a tornado. Any natural disaster is a result of sin, that I think we would both agree. But COULD it be a specific sin? Why not? Number 6 was Piper's conclusion, not God's.
As to your question, "COULD it be a specific sin?" Well, sure, it could be. But if we go this route then it could also not be, or it could be for a different sin altogether. My point is that we can't really know this with certainty. We can only speculate. And rather than speculate I'd prefer stick with what has been clearly revealed.
I also wonder if the warning from Moses of multiple plagues in Egypt was interpreted as mere speculation. I'm glad you agree with the fact that it could've been linked. And I think if you studied all the variables, the coincidence seems extremely unlikely. But you're right - what's the point in speculation if it's a generation that would refuse to believe?
I think what we sometimes unwittingly do is imagine that the task of the prophet somehow enables them to just "say it as it is" and/or "to let the chips land where they may." In other words, because we know the prophets of the OT were commissioned by the Lord to speak difficult things into their context, so we imagine that fidelity to the God-given message and prophetic boldness are somehow incompatible with humility. Not so. While the O.T. prophets are certainly called by God to preach the word he gives them, and while such a prophet may communicate in ways that are difficult to hear and understand --that is, they may speak with uncompromising passion and with particular pointedness-- nonetheless none of this exempts the godly prophet from being humble (from not acting out of pride). On the contrary, the demand of God remains "to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with God" (Micah 6:8). Bottom line, the O.T. prophets were to encourage in others and to exemplify as God representatives, true humility. Of course, Jesus, the ultimate prophet of God, is manifestly humble. And so the answer to your question, "if the Lord has gifted an individual to be his prophet... how would we lablel that person humble?" is to look to Jesus. Jesus shows us prophetic humility even as he shows us prophetic fidelity and boldness. Humility is simply not incompatible with being called to be a true prophet.
I will by pass the question of Dr.Piper being a prophet, with one exception. And that is to say that as much as I believe he is a generally capable and godly communicator of God's Word, he is not a prophet--not in the O.T. sense.
Concerning the multiple plagues of Exodus, I'd like to suggest this confirms the broader paradigm that I am advocating for. The plagues brought upon Egypt through the ministry of Moses (under God) are not in any way to be interpreted as speculation. But here is why: Because GOD HIMSELF INTERPRETED THESE EVENTS. This is manifestly different from the tornado that struck Minneapolis! This is the very point at issue and why so many people who are otherwise appreciative of Dr.Piper are here expressing their concern. Whereas scripture expressly links God's purposes with particular events associated with redemptive history (whether flood, hailstorm, fire, or whatever), we nowhere have God's purposes announced, explained, or even applied to various disasters today. And this raises two problems: First, we are left in the realm of fallible human speculation. Second, we are left guessing at what God is doing and we frequently guess along certain lines that are more or less favorable to our own concerns and values. In other words, it is easy to skew events in certain directions. Thus we are left not with "thus says the Lord" at all but with something far, far less.
I appreciate the dialog, Brian, but I return to my original remarks (specifically, that I wish we evangelicals would refrain from interpreting providence), and I want to reiterate what I noted in my first reply to you (that I'd prefer stick with what has been clearly revealed than speculate). I must break off responding to this string here but once again, thank you for your thoughts and comments.
As far as others condemning greed, well, greed should be condemned, but the blessings of God such as the abundance that is also preached about should be accepted and appreciated. If you tythe, and you reap the blessings, is that greed? I think not.
I don't question that homosexual couples feel love for their partners and some may remain in committed relationships, but the problem with sin is that it has tainted our understanding of love. Such matrimonial love was meant for a union between one man and one woman.
I’ve read testimonies of homosexuals who, by faith in the forgiveness and power of Jesus Christ, choose to abstain from sexual activity through sheer obedience to Jesus Christ. They had (and probably still have) sexual inclinations for individuals of the same gender, yet because a desire to live in repentance unto God, live a life of celibacy. This is the same for Christian singles, who like every human being, are sexual creatures with sexual desires from birth, but are celibate because of obedience. Then it matters not whether one is homosexual or heterosexual but that one is obedient to Christ.
But of course, if you are not a follower of Christ, this would be utterly senseless to you.
God would be upset to know we do not think he is very bright in his design.
I just found out this morning that one of the young ladies I worked with in Rwanda passed away last night from continuous health and injury problems resulting from the genocide.
Where were the tornadoes during these 100 days???
Conclusion: Piper should issue a public apology for this article. And "turn from" his self-appointed prophet status.
My feeling is that it rains on the just and the unjust. Nature is capricious, and divining signs from tragedy or natural occurrences is a morally suspect undertaking.
However I am more interested in the outcome of what would occur for Mr. Piper after witnessing the lived experience of the Cross and the commitment to Jesus in the lives and worship of LGBTQ people.
God's love is big. Christ surprises. The Body of Christ is diverse. Let us stop saying to the hand or eye, "I do not need you." May we begin dining at the table of forgiveness together.
We Christians of strong faith will love you, Pastor Piper and your church. Our faith will stand strong in the face of danger despite of the voices of Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. If you worship at the foot of the cross with us perhaps you will find the fire of the Spirit unsettling for that is God's way, isn't it? Bisexual, Lesbian, Gay, Transgendered, and those communities' allies are stronger in Christ than to let a storm
or the storm of public opinion stop us from loving Christ as we are.
Here's to more joy in the journey, fellow Christians! Thank God that true knowledge and power is not in human hands...
My name is Darryl Glass and I am a pastor at a local UMC here in Louisville, Ky. My wife works at Southern Seminary under Dr. Mohler, as she, also is a big fan of yours.
This piece has given me reason for concern. This is not something I would have expected to hear from you, Pastor. I find it terribly irresponsible. I can understand you wanting to take a stand and upholding what you feel is the moral will of God as set forth in sacred scripture...but to speak as if you have intimate knowledge of something this specific is, to be honest, troubling.
Respectfully yours,
Darryl Glass
Asst. Pastor, Fern Creek United Methodist Church
Louisville, Kentucky
darrylwglass@gmail.com
I'm proud of the ELCA. Thanks for reminding me that science education needs to be improved in this country.
"Focus on adultery" and ignore all of the other sins mentioned?
I too agree that the Bible was written by humans... and that the New Testament was written by people in direct contact with Jesus Christ. I understand the argument, but to say that none, if not all, of what was written is as God or Jesus had said it is pretty extreme.
One of the seven deadly sins is Pride. And Greed (wanting it for yourself... I want what I want, and that's all I'm focused on). And Lust.
I encourage you to look into this more before making statements.
Having a gay friend does not make you "the most educated" on what God has said (I don't admit to be, for reference). I have 2 gay friends. So what?
God help us.
Yes, God controls the weather.
Yes, Jesus calmed the storm and caused people to think he was supernatural.
Yes, Jesus said that all may deserve death if they sin.
Claiming that those facts combine to reach the conclusion that God sent the tornado to Minneapolis to smite the Lutherans is not logically supported by those independent facts. That may be your opinion but it is not a logical argument at all. You are missing a few steps.
Stating a theory of yours as a "conclusion" causes people, who might otherwise pay attention to the other things you say, to dismiss you as an illogical person who does not support your conclusions adequately.
I have never seen or read any stories in which Christ condemned people and humiliated them. He spoke to them. loved them, and called them out of the sin they were engaged in. Has anyone ever experienced lifelong transform that was triggered by condemnation or judgment? If this tornado was God's judgment don't you think they would know that it was God's hand acting? All the stories in the Bible point to God's power and love, and when he speaks the people know it. The ELCA must know enough about the Lord to know when he speaks, and one would think if this were judgment on them they would know it? I am sure many do not agree with me. I am not attempting to point any fingers, and certainly do not claim that I have everything figured out. I guess what I am trying to say is this.....people respond and change when we respect who they are an what they believe. Although I greatly disagree with much of this, I humbly disagree with the predominant train of thought, and just offer my opinion. It does little good when we criticize and shove our opinions on others. Maybe we would make more progress if the discussion were more honoring and respectful off all the differing parties?
Personally, I don't know if God was in the wind or not and I couldn't say for sure one way or the other-He didn't tell me...
Dr. Piper, however, does make a compelling case for God being in the wind in this case. Additionally, I find the entire incident curious and a little awe-inspiring. Surely if God wanted to do this thing, He could have, yes? My kids do wrong things daily in my presence...sometimes, depending on the severity, I may let it slide just to see where it goes, while at other times I make my statement with a look. But sometimes, I stand up and step in with conviction...it just depends. I'm the Dad and this is my prerogative. Likewise, how God chooses to handle the acts of man is His prerogative, is it not? Maybe this time, He stepped in...maybe not, but the evidence is strong that He did as Piper has shown in his blog.
Thank you, John Piper, for your courage and humility that you have shown in your assessment of this incident. Thank for you for standing up for the Word of God. And thank you for encouraging other to do the same.
Grace and Peace to you all. Praise be to God forever and ever!
I am a member of a congregation that had been in the ELCA until one year ago. Over several years our pastor and elders wrote letters of deep concern about the lack of a biblical stand on this issue and others by even the regional synod, much less the national body, on these matters clearly laid out in scripture. The letters were sent to the ELCA bishop of North Texas-North Louisiana Synod and to the national head bishop of the Church. Polite pleasantries is all we got in response. Thus we officially separated ourselves from the body last year at this time and remain independent for now. We took a stand, you have taken a stand, Martin Luther himself declared, "Here I stand [on the clear words of God in scripture]; I can do no other." Let the ranting and raving roll off your back like the proverbial rain off the duck's back. (Haven't seen much rain in north and central Texas for a looong time.) Speak out as God leads.
I had two thoughts as I was talking with my pastor today -
1. - Maybe it was God trying to make a point, but I'm not sure what the poor folks at 40th and Portland working north or the Cottage Grove neighborhood had to do with it.
2. - taking a book from Lazarus and the Rich man, if they won't believe what the scripture says about sin, they still won't be convinced if God DOES send a natural disaster - to interpret it in that way almost makes God look petty and random, which I don't think he is -
On the other hand, it does draw attention to a denomination that has a serious sickness in it so nothing wrong with that -
otherwise, his points are scriptural and valid.
rb
In the Greek it was "to go after strange flesh" So what is so strange about human flesh? Is it strange? Yet still created by God?
How about I interpret this perfectly expectable mundane occurence with a logical approach. The cross has a lot of surface area, has little wind shelter, and is fixed at a small week point. The summer brings with it thunderstorms in Minnesota and we have had an especially active season. It would have been "divine providence" if it hadn't broken.
I might point out also, that any secularist (or Lutheran) who knew of this convention, and heard of the storms coming, knew a couple days ago that people like you were going to bring up some nonsense like this. I don't even believe in a god, but I can at least respect Lutherans for respecting the rights of people instead of trying to wrap up their hatred with their mythology like some people.
And for those who say hell is real, please provide me with proof both of this and that it is more intolerable than an eternity with evengelicals.
The application? If Piper's church gets taken out by a tornado, fire, flood, etc. then what he'll call his people to do is the same he called the ELCA today: Repent of sin and cling to Christ in the gospel.
Having said that, the toppled steeple is a fitting symbol for the state of the ELCA. "Crumbled have spires in every land."
So, does God use all natural disasters to warn us of our sins, or is it more a matter of God picking and choosing when to use them?
I ask because these sort of statements don't seem to promote the kingdom; they alienate people on the outside, and they make those of us on the inside appear as people who have little grace and mercy. If God's grace to us is so profound, who do we have trouble doing the same toward others.
Grace & Peace,
Randy Buist
http://mindflowers.net/2009/08/20/john-piper-a-...
Here is to hoping that indeed Piper and members of Bethlehem Baptist bring their work belts to Central Lutheran and help repair any structural damage Central Lutheran in the spirit of Christian service and have communion over cold pizza and soda.
2. Disagree 100% - That God sent a Tornado as either a sign of warning or judgment.
a. Piper misuses Mark 4:41 as a proof text (oops!) to support the premise that Jesus Christ uses weather as means of judgment. The verse is part of a passage that describes how Jesus stopped the wind to save people from harm NOT sent the wind to harm.
b. Piper misheard what the tornado said to him. It was in fact a message to a powerless and lazy Church which could not produce a single person in the city to actually act like their Lord Jesus Christ and do what He did. That is to calm the wind (see point a).
c. If Jesus was using the wind as an instrument of judgment, He has pretty bad aim. Not just the ELCA church and conference were damaged.
http://twincities.decider.com/articles/update-p...
http://www.startribune.com/galleries/53727487.h...
Love Piper, love a great deal of what the Reformed church is bringing back into focus, don't love the way my God is incorrectly being represented.
1. Check out Amos 4 and tell me the 5 reasons why God expected his people to repent. Go on. Somebody list them for me. SOMEBODY.
2. Perhaps one reason we struggle with what Piper has to say is that we look at this through a fragmented, individualistic lens. In fact, pastor Piper may also to an extent (he's baptist after all ;)). God's body needs to repent of the sin of condoning sin. That includes ELCA, Bethlehem, PCUSA, OPC, SBC, whoever and whichever acronyms of members of the Body. I think Piper is trying to do his part in corporate repentance. Perhaps we would do well to remember Achan's sin caused all of Israel to be guilty before God (Josh 7:1). Likewise, is it not logical that the Lutheran's or the Episcopalian's corporate sin causes all in the Body to be guilty. Piper is calling the Body, and specifically a certain organ of the Body, to repent.
Lord, we repent. Help us rid our unrepentance.
"If God doesn't judge the US of A, He'll have to apologise to Sodom & Gomorrah"
Those of us who work with the destitute and dying in Africa, groan inwardly as we see the extremes of the West...
too much money to spend
And too much idle time
Too many movies
The kind of passion and crime
Too many books, man
That are not even fit to be read
Too much evil in what they hear said
And too many children
Encouraged to roam
By too many parents
Who won't even stay at home...a sad commentary indeed.
The mental picture of obese caucasians, swilling their beer and guzzling down multiple burgers and fries, whilst 2 thirds of the world's population get less than one meal a day and no clean water to drink or even wash is hard to shake when you walk a mile with these desperate babies and young people.
Wake up Christians of America, thou leader of the 'free'. Stop straining gnats of minor inconvenience from the soup of prosperity and look beyond the lip of your bowl to the fields of real, breathing, disadvantaged peoples with REAL needs who make up "the fields ripe unto harvest" Your nation has become the greatest peddlers of all that God detests the most...the days are short and the need is humongous!...why spend your money on that which leads only to death?
According to Calvin and Piper... there can be no apostacy to rebuke since there is no possibility of falling away... you either is or you ain't. By one's own volition, there can be no willful turning from anything.Calvinism is theological determinism (fatalism).
A warning? Perhaps, but for who and for what purpose? Who stands to benefit from it the most? Certainly, not the already condemned. Assuming, as consistent Calvinists do, that all men without Christ are dead, this event "awakens" no one.
Mr. Piper submitted an interesting article to World Magazine on the 9/11 disaster arguing that this was the action of God for some ultimate good. As John Piper wrote in World Magazine (Title: “Governor of all: God was sovereign over Sept.11, and so we have hope.” October 6, 2001).
Consequently, if it is true, as Dr. Piper maintains, that God caused the destruction of the World Trade Center and the loss of more than 2,970 lives then, it is also true that He (God) is equally responsible for the event of January 22, 1973 (the Roe versus Wade decision). So we must conclude that it is ultimately God who has caused the deaths of more than 50,000,000 unborn babies (3,700 each day in America). In my mind, this is where ridgid high sovereignty must ultimately lead us. Regrettably, this is the God we wind up with.
Calvinists cannot have it both ways. In this issue, there is nothing for anyone to protest since protesting has no effect on any outcome as everything is the result of God’s own counsel and will. I hope to be made wrong but this is "miniscule sovereignty" as I understand it. Everything is caused and there is no "allowing" as we might understand it.
Here, see if I misunderstand something and tell me.
“Predestination we call the eternal decree of God by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others… We assert that, by an eternal and immutable counsel, God hath once for all determined whom He would admit to salvation and whom He would condemn to destruction. We affirm that this counsel, as far as it concerns the elect, is founded on His gratuitous mercy, totally irrespective of human merit: but that to those whom He devotes to condemnation, the gate of life is closed by a just and irreprehensible, but incomprehensible judgment.”
Frankly, this statement is hard to fiddle with. Things are a foregone conclusion. We are stuck with the way things are. My advice to Calvinists? With eternity as risky as you make it out to be, you should never have children.
Just a thought . . .
The new clergy policy needs only a simple majority to pass.
The 34-page social statement actually touches on homosexuality only briefly, and is intended as a sweeping definition of the ELCA's approach to matters of human sexuality. It also sketches out the church's approach to gender, friendship, marriage and children, cohabitation outside marriage, the commercialization of sexuality, and the global sex trade.
But it acknowledges what Larson described as an utter lack of consensus toward homosexuality and same-sex relationships across the ELCA's membership. She said the statement's drafters agreed that such differing views could be accomodated because the homosexuality issue is "not central to our faith," Larson said.
Wednesday's debate was interrupted briefly in the afternoon when severe storms and a possible tornado passed through downtown Minneapolis, damaging the steeple of an ELCA church across the street from the convention center. Delegates were allowed to remain in the convention hall, but a few jokes about God's wrath proved inevitable.
"We trust that the weather is not a commentary on our work," said the Rev. Steven Loy, who was helping oversee the convention.
(How much force does it take to break a metal cross attached to a metal steeple?)
(By a tornado that appeared without a rotating thunderstorm and had no hail or updraft?)
Rev. Patrick Cabello Hansel
As for your insinuation that Piper's God is cruel and capricious, do you not believe that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? The question isn't "Why does God allow bad things to happen?" The question we should be asking is "Why does a just and holy God allow sinful, rebellious creatures to continue living at all?"
There is a deeper question here. Pr. Piper and leeshelton seem to worship and proclaim a God who is ready to punish, warn and even destroy so that we might repent. That is contrary to the work of Jesus Christ as seen in the Gospel. The question is not at all "Why does a just and holy God allow sinful, rebellious creatures to continue living at all?". The question is: "How will we respond as forgiven--yes, but still sinful--children of God, who have been freed completely and forever by the death and resurrection of Jesus?" Will we live that love radically and share it with others, or will we hide it under a bushel, or worse, slip back into our fear (which is captivity)? The gift of God in Jesus Christ is a free and completely sufficient gift--isn't that what we proclaim? If we still have to ward off an angry God by our actions, haven't we abandoned the Reformers truth rather fully?
I have no doubt that God is a just and holy God, and that he hates unrighteousness and injustice. But the Jesus I know excoriated self righteousness much more. Finally, I believe that God shows God's power chiefly in mercy--the whole point of the cross--and that if we are to base our salvation (however we see that as revealed and lived out) on our own repentance, then we are to be most pitied. For that is the way of despair. We can never repent sufficiently to satisfy a just God. Thank God, in Jesus Christ, we don't have to. He has won the victory.
I can understand that you may not agree with the stance the ELCA is taking, but to boldly proclaim that a tornado is a form of punishment is really a stretch for me. I know that you somewhat recently lost a grandchild that was stillborn. Was this because your child was an unrepentant sinner? Was he defying the Lord through his life and thus the Lord used this opportunity to "gently remind him" to get back on the path.
I know this is a personal example- perhaps too personal for many- but these claims that you are making, they are also very personal. I don't see a clear delineation between one bad thing happening for no reason and another happening as a punishment. If you start making bold proclamation that God is smiting, then soon every hardship in life must also be categorized for the same reason, right?
Just driving the point home,
JL TenPeg
And one more question, how do you know it is wrong to be a bigot? Who makes the rule that bigotry is wrong?
You know, it wasn't that long ago that it was interracial marriage we were debating about. Ever heard of Loving v. Virginia? The case made interracial marriage legal. Here's a quote from the case:
"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."
That argument sounds kind of similar... hmmm... where have I heard this line of reasoning before???
Morality come from within our hearts. Your Bible says something similar, although you think it was God that put it there. We know that bigotry is wrong because our conscience tells us so. Let me ask you something, if God told you to kill me, would you? Second, would you say that you would not know that murder was wrong if there was no God?
I am moral because it benefits myself and others, not because it appeases some invisible force.
A frued, the scriptures teach us that "Love must be sincere and without hypocrisy: Cling to that which is good, hate that which is evil." To truly love you...I must hate that which harms you. That which destroys you, robbing of life. Therefore, I "hate" all wrong paths, knowing that they rob of the Life that Christ comes to give. Whether child molestation, murder, etc.,.
To hate sin...as opposed to loving it...both his own, and others...is the most loving, life-giving thing that John can do...if it takes him...and us...to the foot of the cross.
Paul, can you provide some texts to support your point?
Thanks,
james
"The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)"
However, it left out fornicators and boy prostitutes, the latter of which is critical in understanding the literal translation.
The Greek word translated as "boy prostitutes" designated catamites - such as boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution. This was common practice in the Greco-Roman world.
Now, the term translated "practicing homosexuals" refers to adult males who indulged in sexual indignities with these boys.
So, to be an adult and engage in sexual activity with a child being held against their will for the sole purpose of said sexual activity is wrong. Okay, I'm down with that.
That is NOT homosexuality.
Bottom line: God is Love. Period.
And if I'm wrong? Well that'll be a conversation between us then...because it's only His job to judge me.
I don't really understand where you are going with your comment. Nevertheless, the Greek word "pornea" is translated as "sexually immoral." It's a junk-drawer term that Paul used to cover all types of sinful sexual activity. This way, some 20-year old dude who wanted an excuse to do something crazy couldn't come up to Paul and say, "I got something you didn't mention!" All sexual activity that happens outside of heterosexual marriage is sinful. God is love. You are right. But he is also holy. Because he is a holy, loving God, he calls us to repent because anything that is opposed to his glory and will is hurtful to us--both in this life and the next.
I wonder if they got the message, I hope they did.
Thanks for the heads up on the move of God
Only but by the grace of God are we not destroyed.
But the evil has become so great - we're going to see the result of giving ourselves and our nation over to Satan to be ruled by the devil.
A time will come when those who are lukewarm and comfortable in their "lifestyle", sinning and calling it something else, when they will have to either take God at His Holy word, the Bible and the Truth or choose their way and ultimately, their destination will be chosen in the way they choose to live. We serve a Holy God, the One and Only True God, the ONLY Resurrected Savior of the world Jesus Christ and IF you read this and are not living for Him I encourage you to quit using excuses for your sins and read the Book of John in the Holy Bible. Their is only one hope for all of us and His name is Jesus Christ. He says,"I am the way and the Truth and the Life. No one comest to the Father except through Me."
It makes me sick when any group of Christians decides to turn their back on the clear-cut wording of scripture and condone sin – no matter what kind of sin that is! Jesus gave his LIFE to offer us freedom from sin. Our job as His followers is to show sinners the way to freedom – through forgiveness, by the blood of Jesus Christ. If we decide to condone the very act of sin which separates a lost person from their Heavenly Father, we stand in line for judgment. Jesus clearly told us in scripture that if we deceive or mislead anyone into sin, it would be better if we had never been born!
We are not called to condemn anyone. That is Satan’s job. We are called to rescue the perishing! Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit was sent to convict the sinner of their sins. The last time I checked, the Holy Spirit doesn’t need any help doing this job. We are simply instructed to share the Good News. All sin leads to Death, but Jesus offers Forgiveness, Restoration of a right relationship with God, and LIFE! Halleluiah!!! To God be the Glory for offering us all this free gift!
However frustrating this recent decision by the ELCA is, we need to recall that Jesus warned us these times would come. In the end times, many have (and will) turn their back on a true relationship with their loving Heavenly Father. Please note: I did NOT say that they would turn their back on religion, the church, tradition, or their “faith”. Let’s not use “Christianese” language any further. These people will turn their back on the loving Creator who gave them life, loves them deeply without condition, and gave His most precious possession – His only Son – to redeem them. It is this rebellion, this eternal decision to reject the Word of God as being offensive, “out of touch”, or unnecessary, that cause these people to be condemned in the book of Revelations.
Please understand the heart of God on this matter. Any rejection of his love is deeply personal. God doesn’t bring denominations or conference groups before His Judgment throne. He brings people – one at a time. Each of us will answer for everything we said, thought, or did. Excuses are like elbows – everybody has a couple. However, there will be no excuse that can stand before God.
I hope everyone that reads this will carefully examine their own heart. If there is any wickedness harboring itself in your heart, take it to God. Surrender your pride, your hardness, your fears, your anger, and whatever else the enemy has used to separate you from God. Ask the Holy Spirit to restore the joy of your Salvation. Then allow God to make that same joy bubble up in your heart until it becomes a living fountain which naturally overflows to those around you as you freely share His gift of LIFE!
La Chaim! (To Life!!!)
Joe
Lord I pray that all those who have contact with this ministry and others will feel the depth of your word and your call and that you (God) will break our hearts for you to live passionately for your name and compassionately for people. Lord let only truth come out in these words. Amen
Thank you for this blog. It was humbling. Oh, how we need to turn from approval of sin. Thank you.
DZ
Is the church the only thing that was damaged by the tornado? I thought that there were homes affected as well. I suppose they were members of the church. You need to look at the whole picture not just what you want your theology to tell you. "Do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Minneapolis?" No. I made a post backing up my claims with scripture. I am not sure if it will be posted or not. I agree that homosexuality is wrong. However, I do not agree that God caused the tornado because he was angry at this church.
Homosexuality, a class of sin that falls within a very special category of sin, sexual sin, including adultery, fornication, and so on, is one that Scripture clearly identifies as especially heinous as it is "against the body", whereas all other sins are outside the body, where the Holy Spirit resides.
What is the significance of homosexuality and the Body of Christ? It is not the real issue but the wedge Satan is using to once again ask of man, "Did God say?" Just like the deception in the Garden with Adam and Eve, homosexuality is likely the chosen sin that is being used to call into question the authority and veracity of God's Word. Once we abandon that, we are wide open to interpretation and deception. If God has said to not add or take away one jot or tittle of His word, then we must be very concerned when "christians" tell us that we must be more open in our thinking. The issue could be some other sin, such as adultery or divorce or lying or idolatry or any number of other prohibitions in God's word but this is the one allowed for this time. We would be wise to heed the Spirit when our spirits are provoked by the enormity of the rebellion against God and His authority in our lives as created beings.
If we dare to call ourselves Christians, then let us follow what Christ taught us - let us literally follow his deeds, and not try to interpret the meaning of his teachings to fit situations which we do not or cannot fully understand (this is the opposite of Christ's teachings). Did Christ turn anyone away, did he turn away from those that some may have viewed as unclean? No, He did not.
When the tornado came, to Minneapolis, perhaps it wasn't a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and to all of us as Mr. Piper suggests, but perhaps, and more clearly it was a warning to us all to stop judging people. Stop judging people who believe and promote Christ through peace and to let those who will teach Christ's ways be free to teach them in the welcoming way of spreading the Christ essence as we are all children of God. We will never heal until we learn to accept and forgive and to have forbearance toward others; our world will never be truly be as Christ taught until those things happen.
That claim cannot be substantiated with Scripture. What's more, if homosexuality were wrong, why would the world have it?
It seems like we have forgotten the Lord's words about turning the other cheek and praying for those who persecute you. And I absolutely think this is true for all sides of this argument.
Perhaps rather than letting our fingers type out hateful things at one another we should be lifting holy hands in prayer for repentance of our own sins, whatever they may be, and praise for the Lord's faithfulness to all of us. Because regardless of the origins, reasons, or motivations of the storm, all lives were spared.
'The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.' - Num 14:18
"Also with moisture He loads the thick cloud; He disperses the cloud of His lightning. 12 "It changes direction, turning around by His guidance, That it may do whatever He commands it On the face of the inhabited earth. 13 "Whether for correction, or for His world, Or for lovingkindness, He causes it to happen.
"People are entirely too disbelieving of coincidence. They are far too ready to dismiss it and to build arcane structures of extremely rickety substance in order to avoid it. I, on the other hand, see coincidence everywhere as an inevitable consequence of the laws of probability, according to which having no unusual coincidence is far more unusual than any coincidence could possibly be." -Isaac Asimov
The logic is wrong however. And I will defend that position with all diligence...still seeing and savoring our Lord Jesus Christ...
-Where good is being done, especially when done under the name of Jesus, the Devil will try to thwart these plans
-Rather than the storm being God's hand, perhaps this was the Devil using its power to thwart God's work
It is a no-brainer on seeing what the scriptures say about homosexuality. Even if someone is pre-disposed with a proclivity towards the same sex(for discussion sake) why approve of leadership in church when the issue is so controversial.
Yeah wouldn't you know Boyd has to make a jab at the Piper. Simply because the only thing bigger than Piper's ego is Boyd's ego. It is not your business Boyd or anyone not involved to pass judgment in either way. Let the ELCA have the luxury of deciding for themselves if this the hand of God.
Clearly the ELCA rejects the Bible as being fallible. I guarantee that NO ONE who likes Piper is going to accept that premiss. As of Friday afternoon I am concerned the Lutheran church is filled with evil heretics. BROKE THE RULES OF THE SENOD SO THAT THE STATEMENT ON HOMOSEXUAL CLERGY WOULD PASS.
There is a violation of process with in their own context and with in the context of the WORD. But the Millstone is around THEIR head. Piper it is not your place to tell Lutherans anything. I don't know why you are so aggressive in your statements of conviction. What our church needs is empathy for those who have a millstone around their neck. I can't imagine the BRUTALITY and PUNISHMENT God has lined up for those who are trying to lead so many christians astray.
This is why .. 1) I Love the message of Jesus ..and 2) I am repelled by what Christianity does. This is exactly the reason why I won't consider joining the church for another 5 years....
there ARE meteorological explanations for tornadoes. the ELCA discussing homosexuality does not equal God needing to express his point of view through a tornado. He's expressed himself pretty clearly in the Bible.
tell me what the tornado at Union University was a reminder of ...
this is exactly why my non-Christian friends despise 'Christians' and the 'Church' - so quick to slap a label on anything that's convenient.
Thanks for expressing the love of Jesus there. Gotta go! Need to find my nearest ELCA church!
I understand the desire for sarcasm, but will it be effective? Think man, who do you want to reach?
Thank you for understanding the desire for sarcasm. But I don't feel compelled to reach anyone. God made the world with its good and its bad. He is the one who will need to fix it-- not Mr. Piper. I hope that nothing bad befalls Mr. Piper or his church lest others use the same medicine on him.
Many years ago, the church attempted to exercise authority over the state and over the culture. Those who were uncomfortable with church interpretations or legislation were persecuted to the point of death. Rather than a period of time when God's grace and love reigned supreme, it was a day of decadece, immorality and corruption. An abundance of power, bestowed on fallen humans led to a horrible state of affairs.
Today we have the state attempting to take over the church and dicate that which is acceptable culturally. Some are succumbing to the cries of narrow-mindedness and are embracing a religious populism that reflects prevailing philosophies of the day. Persecution of today's variety is against those who claim to love the person but disapprove of the practice. In essence, those who share many of the same principles with the persecuted of three centuries ago are being persecuted today, this time by the state.
The hard reality for those who believe that scripture somehow supports homesexual practice is that there is less than nothing in scripture that determines what it means to live in harmony with God's design for life while so practicing. In essence, while most agree that God should reign supreme in every aspect of our lives, some appear to be suggesting that He is not in control of the sexual practices of homosexuals.
The real question then becomes how there can be any portion of a person's life that is exempted from God's influence. What does it mean to practice homosexuality responsibly. within the constraints of Biblical teaching? The answer is that there is nothing in scripture that provides such guidance. Rather, there is wholesale condemnation.
If people wish to form a church that reflects society's mores, that is permitted in America. Please, however. don't confuse such a group with those who are committed to Biblical scholarship and Christian orthodoxy.
God must have had a hand in that as well, since God was controlling the storm. Or is that just Collatoral damage?
Heb 13:13
The point is, who is Dr. Piper to know what (if any) intent there is behind every natural diasaster or event? Regardless of where you fall theologically on God's providence, John Piper is NOT God.
I agree that biblically, homesexuality is wrong, but Dr. Piper is walking on thin ice here to interpret certain events this way.
Don't discredit what the spirit can do either. Even you, as a man (or woman) created in His image with an amazing potential to be close to Him, could logically assert that God has used a certain event--or natural disaster--to call someone or a group of people away from sin. Doesn't mean you would be right, but it could be true. And if it resulted in the potential for repentance, you would be right to do so. You're not claiming to be God in that example, neither is Piper.
As far as hip hop goes, that's a whole 'nother debate. Some say God listens to Slayer.
So quick to pass judgment, yet never stopping to remove the wooden plank from their own eyes! How many times is homosexuality mentioned in the bible; 5 times maybe? How about other sins that are committed by each and every one of you on a daily basis? Thousands of times! Poverty is a shameful dilemma in this country, and yet millions of Christians are “blessed” with ranch homes and Lexus, Mercedes etc.. 6 figure salaries.. They are blessed with that?? For what if not to sell it all and help the needy? Though this pastor has probably given sermons on very genuine topics, this is complete and utter disdain for Jesus’ teachings of love and acceptance. Judge not lest ye be judged. To assume that we know what God is doing and where he punishes the wicked all the while we are still wicked in our own hearts makes us nothing more than modern day pharisees!
You can still lovingly bring people into the Kingdom without the condemnation. Leave that to the Holy Spirit. He's pretty good at that....and, unlike us, actually ACCURATE in his assessments.
Betty
The apostle Paul did not mince words on sin, nor did Jesus. If people don't know of the wrath of God which is coming on the disobedient they will never see the need for the saving truth of the Gospel. Even though the Holy Ghost assessments ARE accurate as you say. Our deceitful hearts, which the Scripture talks about,often times perverts what the Lord is seeking to teach us. We will always have the need for Godly teachers to negate the rationalizations of our sinful hearts
Thank you for doing your part to share that Truth and Light. (And praise God for a tornado message!)
Luther: "That person does not deserve to be called a theologian who looks upon the invisible things of God as though they were clearly perceptible in those things that have actually happened (or have been made, created)." (Thesis 19 of Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, 1518.)
Remember Katrina? The epicenter of "Christian" bloviating about Sinful New Orleans is the French Quarter and that suffered less damage than any other parish. If the Creator had anything to do with that, It certainly has a sense of humor.
Also, I don't know why you bring in the part about sin: Did you know the end result of the convention already menat they would tolerate SIN?
Henri
Once again you take a stand for Truth!
I wonder on what basis the ELCA can now not endorse unrepentant idolaters, adulterers and swindlers for leadership positions in the church? This is, of course, a rhetorical question. Since the inspiration and authority of Scripture is passe, who cares!
"People are far too disbelieving of coincidence. They are far too ready to dismiss it and to build arcance structures of extremely rickety substance in order to avoid it. I, on the other hand, see coincidence everywhere as an inevitable consequence of the laws of probability, according to which having no unusual coincidence is far more unusual than any coincidence could possibly be."
-Isaac Asimov
I wonder what other kind of gay endorsement shenanigans were happening in those states?
It is strange that God needs to use such crude methods of showing his disapproval with people. The military can drop a bomb through an air vent from a plane in the sky but God has to use a tornado to send his dubious message?
It is almost like God wants to appear indistinguishable from natural forces. If God was upset with the ELCA's actions, why not strike them all with leprosy and blindness? Now that would be hard to confuse with natural weather patters.
Christians want so bad to believe their God is active on earth that they make post hoc explanations to give him credit, especially if it happens to those they demonize.
What a mighty God indeed. (rolls eyes)
Whether you agree with it or not, the Bible CLEARLY says that homosexuality is a sin. No interpretation is needed. That's it. It's basic and simple. As a society we have tried our best to make homosexuality "ok" b/c we know people who are gay and the media glamorizes it. Homosexuality is a sin just like adultery, stealing, and lying are sins. We will all be held accountable for our actions.
I don't think every natural disaster that happens is due to some specific sin, but there are way too many coincidences in this situation that makes me think that God was definitely sending a warning.
We all need to heed the warning!
----"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of thy Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me." --John 15:16-21
Jamie Quam, US Army, Baghdad Iraq
This just demonstrates how dogmatic thought wreaks havoc upon the ability to reason clearly.
Thank you John Piper for being a lover of truth and sounding an alarm.
When I read Luke 13, I understand that Jesus is telling the people that the people who died in the tower accident were NOT being punished because of their sin. He seemed to be rebuking this very type of interpretation of natural disasters "Do you think they were worse offenders...?"
Some of these comments have gone way down some brambly trails. The post was written about a particular group of church leaders. It addressed those leaders and not any homosexuals. Remember, judgment begins in the house of God. Clearly he was addressing the issue of shepherds who weren't being faithful to the sanctity of biblical church leadership. I didn't think at all that he was targeting the homosexuals themselves. John Piper is certainly aware that God holds high standards for his people and his shepherds. I think he wrote from this viewpoint and not to firebomb a particular group of fellow sinners.
Now whether the wind was even sent for a reason, that is debatable, so the comments have been really fun to read. Carry on.
Jesus: “Those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:4-5)
**"No, I tell you" *** In other words, God did not send that tower down in order to punish those in the tower for some particular reason, just as he most likely did not send the tornado to Minneapolis as a statement against the ELCA!!! One can read in any disaster anything they like. One should instead, be searching for the TRUTH. We are all EQUALLY sinners, so God might have sent a tornado to any location.
Also-in the bible, the verses regarding homosexuality, if taken within the context of that time and discussion, were regarding the abuse of male students by male teachers. THat is completely different than 2 consenting adults who chose same sex relationships, which has to do with brain chemistry, in the same way heterosexual couples brain chemistry determines their choices. What harm is there in a homosexual relationship? How does that harm others??? Really, ask yourself....What Would Jesus Do?
I don't know if you read these comments or not, but if you do, I hope you will take this into consideration. As I glanced through the 600+ comments that your blog now has, I was struck by one thing in particular. Your blog about the tornadoes has caused much conflict among the Christians who have read your blog. I urge you to think about I Corinthians 1:10-17 the next time you decide to blog about some of your personal beliefs. You are in a great position of authority, and being in that position, it is your job to point people toward Christ. The things you say should not cause division among believers. And you must be careful that people are not believing what you say simply because you are John Piper. You must be careful you do not take Scripture out of context to support you beliefs. It is important that people follow Christ through your teachings, and are not simply following you.
Dr. Piper's intention may have not been trying to say the tornado was sent specifically because of ELCA but that is how it came off. A better approach may have been explaining how we can use natural disasters to call ourselves, first, to repent and then others as well. I know I am not perfect and first need to repent before I am telling others to do so. Then he could have used an example of someone repenting after a natural disaster and then finally made mention of the ELCA and how they could use this as a sign to repent but not the that was the purpose of the tornado. Check Boyd's response http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/did-god-send-a-tor... while maybe not perfect an insightful one. (I read some of the previous responses and I pray that the no one is attempting to be hurtful.)
"The church has always embraced those who forsake sexual sin but who still struggle with homosexual desires, rejoicing with them that all our fallen, sinful, disordered lives (all of us, no exceptions) are forgiven if we turn to Christ in faith."
Pardon me--but what planet are you from?
The church has "always" led the way in ridiculing, belittling, excluding, and advocating violence against gay people.
The church has never, ever, ever done what you claim it has. Even now, it's fighting a furious battle to help exclude gay people from the full benefits of citizenship. An outrageous, monstrous fight that should cost every Christian body in the land its tax exemption. And you say the church has "always" loved gay people?
You must, in all seriousness, be on crack.
People will want to bite you with their teeth as they did to Stephen, but look up Jesus is watching you and He is well pleased.
If someone does not want to ackolwedge God when He makes it so obvious, they are in sad denial. Jesus is coming and most will curse his wonerful name right up until that moment.
Gene
As far as storms and accidents, we should all fear the Lord who adminishes us with small disasters yet mercifully keeps us all alive so that we may each search our hearts and repent of our sins.
Unfortunately, like many in this world who do not like to hear the truth of God's Word on homosexuality, you have chosen to attack the messenger. The truth of God's word from Genesis to Revelation is that God abhors the sin of homosexuality. He loves the homosexual and has made a way of escape of the punishment that will be given to all how practice the act of homosexuality. Just because you do not like the truth of the message is not a reason to attack the messenger. He did not write the message... just delivered it.
And BTW: I live in a double wide home that is considered sub-standard by .... everyone. However, I feel bountifully blessed by God to live in it.
She is a married homosexual with a woman mate. It breaks my heart. They were married in a state that allows that union. I in protest did not attend the so called wedding. My daughter knows I am a Messianic Bible believer. She made a confession of faith as a young girl. She has not rejected Yeshua or Jesus as Savior but she like most homosexuals is ignoring the passages that condemn the sin as wrong and against God's plan for man. When I visited my daughter and her partner we did not stay in there home. We toured Boulder and went to eat in several restuarants. Both my daughter and partner were polite and respectful to us. My daughter knows what I believe and why I believe homosexuality is a sin. I was not led to preach to her or her partner on this trip but I showed love and compassion for both of them. I am witnessing the Love of God to them and I did not feel the Holy Spirit was asking me to talk to them about their sins on this trip. Please pray for my daughter and partner to come under the conviction of sin and to turn to Christ for repentence. I agree with John Piper. The Lutheran and Episcopol Church are so shameful in by promoting the sin to leadership; this is not the Judeo-Christian revelation of Scripture and it is ruining not helping our families.
first of all, i'm glad to hear that you deeply love her. but use your logic. because if you did you would see that she has done nothing wrong with her love. unlike " adultery" or any other sin.. loving her partner is NOT hurting anyone. she is breaking no oath as that seen in marriage. she is not emotionally or physically causing any pain to anyone. as a matter of fact, all she is doing is spreading love and joy in the purest of forms. can't you see that? she wants you to. anyway, you should show your daughter our thread and ask her what she thinks of it. best of luck hope and love to you.
But again you are using human logic. Is my daughter going to bare
a child? Will she hold her baby in her arms from her "husband"?
No! What we have done is move the boundries of marriage outside of God's
intended plan of life. If the Bible is the Word of the Living God it
is quite clear that homosexuality is a sin. However we do not live in
a perfect world and a very few of the homosexuals are that way partially
because they were emotionally injured...I believe God will have mercy
on them if they come to Christ. [it is not me who needs to see
if my daughter is faithful and doing no "harm" it is GOD and the last
I read the Scriptures, HE can see just find and He is more merciful
than you or me."
No I do not want my daughter to see any part of your thread to see
that so many "Christians" are abandoning the Word of God out of "love".
I have more respect for "starchy" Baptists that welcome homosexual to
lovingly repent and to receive Christ and to come into His Kingdom."
I also wish you the Love of God that comes from loving and obeying
Yahweh, the only living and true God.
JVS
Well done John Piper. Humble submission to the Gospel is what's needed for any of us to be saved, not a populist opinion that elevates itself over the Gospel. Thanx for pointing people toward Jesus - the true light who enlightens everyone to their sin, but refuses to leave them there if they repent. Ps 32.
Steve Amberson
I am follower of Jesus living in India. I appeal to my brothers and sisters in USA not to use your God-given talents in a way that does not express God's attributes. What you do in USA really affects followers of Jesus across the world.
Why is it any less likely to have been directed at the Evangelical plumber working in the building's basement, who was thinking "thank-you God that I'm not like these compromising Lutherans".
As far as I can tell the tower incident (Lk 13:4-5) was a call not for "others" to repent, but for "me" to repent.
Can I gently ask whether the tornado might have better prompted a post on what "we" need to repent of, rather than the ELCA?
Our Great God is Mighty in ALL of His deeds!! Before I arrived at my desk this morning, I was heavy hearted with haunting questions after listening to the song refrain..."I want to be Holy - set apart for you my Master - ready to do Your will..." DO I really want to BE HOLY? Do I consider my great God my Master? Am I willing to "do" what He says, "when" He says it? I think that being holy, as God is Holy used to be a deep desire of my heart! This picture of God's Power AND Mercy - is a reminder to ME that I have in many ways, forgotten my First Love!! Oh Great and Powerful God of the ALL, draw your people to yourself - bring on the great reminders of your power and mercy and grace - and give us wisdom, discernment and insight into HOW to battle the enemy's deception to even the church! Purify us and make it our desire to be purified!
And even in these cases I think God does play a hand in things, my wife and I have been trying to have kids for over a year and while learning more about conceiving and how birth control works, we learned that many of the problems she has had over the years likely resulted from this. We also learned that many conception problems are a side effect of some birth control methods. It is interesting how the church has avoided this subject greatly though...I wish they hadn't and now I know my wife and I won't avoid this topic when we are blessed with children one day.
Y'all are missing a key fact--while you are all digging deep into scripture to support your stance for or against Mr. Piper's article, there is still one glaring fact that no one's dealing with: This social statement by the ELCA *does not* affirm homosexuality--go to www.elca.org and find the text and read for yourself!
Mr. Piper's article is wrong, not in a Biblical sense, but in a factual one--he's got his wires crossed on the issue. The document is a 35 page treatise on the gift and responsibility of human sexuality, supported with Biblical and theological references. The social statement says that the ELCA:
1.) Affirms human sexuality is a gift from God;
2.) That while they do not affirm homosexuality, they also do not have a clear consensus on how to treat those who are in same-sex relationships within the church;
3.) Does not affirm cohabitation before marriage.
4.) Does not affirm premarital sex;
5.) Does not affirm extramarital sex;
6.) Affirms the traditional, nuclear family;
7.) States that those parishioners practicing lifestyles contrary to this statement are *not* excommunicated or excluded, but are to be prayed for and counseled pastorally.
Let's try not to get all worked up on emotion, but consider the factual errors in this argument--primarily that the ELCA is NOT making sweeping legislation to have gay clergy!
Sorry to disappoint, folks, but there's nothing there about ordaining gay clergy!
Not to be crass, but despite your title you have no authority over the Scripture, Mr. Piper, rather, a personal interpretation. Just as millions have over the thousands of years of Christianity, you have an interpretation of God's will. To assert that yours is greater than that of any others is to, in effect, assume yourself as a Messiah of sorts. To be completely fair, you may just perceive yourself as a Messiah, in which case I can say nothing in response.
No, I can only attempt to remind a fellow Christian that if there were no room for interpretation of the Bible, then there would likely be no differing interpretations left to debate with each other.
Could those tornados have served as a warning to those who welcome all God's children with open arms? It's possible. That being the case, it is also possible that the tornados could have also served as a demonstration of God protecting the ELCA from those who wish ill upon them to the point of suggesting mortal retribution by natural disaster.
Then again, there is always the possibility that they were just tornados. Tornados, in an area known for inclement weather. I saw a homosexual couple holding hands the other day while walking down the street. That night there was a rainstorm. By your interpretation, Mr. Piper, was that rainstorm in response to homosexuals holding hands, or was it simply a weather pattern?
Please allow my thoughts to settle for a moment before replying...if replying.
-A equally (if not adversely) concerned fellow Christian
"Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so."
I agree that the overarching theme of the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation, is that of Our God's Love, Forgiveness and Grace, for **all people.**
But, if you do not first understand His **Purity, Holiness and Justice**, you are reading out half of His Word, to your own grave spiritual danger. That is the problem with those denominations that have strayed away from the truth of Holy Scripture, and even worse, away from *sola scriptura, sola fide, sola deo gratia* as guiding principles. If you emphasize God's love and think that said love overrides His Justice, then you miss the mark. For, God Himself set up *one and only one* way to reconcile our sinful selves to Him: Jesus Christ! See John 14:6.
Jesus set forth a higher standard than the Law for a Christian, and also said, "If you love Me, Keep my commandments. In the sermon on the mount, the Lord equates divorce with adultery, name-calling with murder, etc. Therefore it is a lie to say that God is "more tolerant than in the Old Testament." Do not mistake His patience for approval. Homosexual lusts and conduct have never been acceptable to God; He has in fact labeled such conduct abominable. Who are we but clay pots? Why do we think that we can usurp the Potter's rights (see Romans 9)???
Is John Piper correct, and the tornado is a sign from our God that he does not want the followers of the man who led a nominal Christian church out of darkness into light (Luther) to place practicing homosexuals into the MINISTRY? I have no legally-cognizable evidence, but my heart says ***YES***.
Do we judge those who call themselves Christian but proudly live in open sin and think themselves somehow exempt from His Holy Commands? Yes. Did Paul not judge the man who had either married or was cohabiting with his stepmother and command the Corintians to "remove the evildoer from among yourselves!" See 1 Cor Ch. 5. In fact v.12 reads, "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?"
Christians have no business judging unbelievers. But, once you are within the church, we **are** to judge! How can we restore (and failing that, discipline), those within the Church lest we adjudge their conduct to be a sin? 1 Cor. 5, Matt. 18, Gal. 6 and other passages deal directly with this issue, and prescribe procedures and consequences.
John Piper has every right as a Christian to express his belief that the Lord attempted to get ELCA's attention with that out-of-nowhere tornado. Do you need proof of His Love, Forgiveness and Grace? No person was harmed. IMHO the Lord sent a message that any Christian with a sensitive heart could not miss.
Lev 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
OR
Lev 20:13, "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
Is that clear enough?
However, it is a different creature entirely to impute unlovingness upon Christians who merely note that homosexuality is declared abominable by the Lord Himself. PeeWeeQ correctly quoted Leviticus; there is also Romans 1, showing that homosexual conduct is not on the level of eating the foods that were unclean in the Old Testament -- it is still abominable to God.
1 Cor. 5 unequivocally states that those who continue in sin without repentance (EVILDOERS) are to be removed from the church. ELCA not only fails to counsel repentance, and not only fails to remove them from the church, it now elevates them to an elder's position by allowing such to serve in clergy.
Is it unloving to call out someone caught in a trespass (Gal. 6:1) for his or her sin, and to lead them to repentance (GENTLY -- read the verse)? Never! It is in fact the MOST LOVING course of action. While ejecting someone from the fellowship may seem unloving and harsh, if it produces repentance, then you, by ejecting the evildoer, have helped him to an ETERNAL joy instead of the punishment clearly set forth in Revelation.
As 2 Cor. shows, the ejected evildoer from 1 Cor. 5 quickly repented. Then Paul had to tell the Corinthians to let the repentant one back in to the congregation! the love worked, and the Word shows us exactly how to handle this lovingly.
The Lord loved the ELCA and sent a loving message to repent or face destruction.
Finally, the Lord indeed taught us to love God first, the greatest commandment is "You shall love the LORD your GOD with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength." The Lord also said, "If you love Me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!"
No one doubts some Christians are viewed as somberly people with no joy, fanatic snobs, condemning, un-loving and there are issues we can definitely approach better. But we cannot compromise truth and stop exposing sin (in our own lives first), because that's not love either--it's apathy. And apathy is as hate or even worse.
God said he breathed life into Adam's nostrils and he lived. If God can do that he can do anything, even use natural disasters as a warning to men.
@ Don Bromley: What does it matter that Piper live in a mansion and has three cars? I don't get it...would his statements be more palatable if he lived in an apartment and drove a bicycle?
And yes greed is listed as one of the worst sins because it violates the 1st and 10th commandments.
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/did-god-send-a-tor...
I can now see why there are nonChristians out there never wanting to become one. If i did not believe in the one true God & that Jesus came to die for our sins, & i had read this. Well, my eternal fate might be a different story.
Please let us love our neighbors & witness to our neighbors & rebuke our neighbors in a biblical way. Not in a way that makes us look better.
You are a false teacher.
As I see it - BOTH Don Bromley AND The All Knowing Revered John Piper could actually be right this time. How so? The reality behind the storm is that it was almost certainly just that, a random storm, untouched by the direct hand of God, albeit a very strange storm. Now, could God have sent a tornado, or swarm of locusts as a warning sign to those heretical, lutefisk loving Lutherans? Of course - but the reality is that He probably didn't. The interpretation of the damage of the storm is what counts here. God's judgement - on those pesky liberal-leaning Lutherans and all others who will now be reading copies of Lavender magazine while taking Holy communion. I have to say J.P is actually right on this one - not about the storm mind you, but his stand on homosexuality. The scriptures are quite clear that homosexuality is sinful and does not align with the will of God. I know, here we go again, being all intolerant and non-accepting. But God's people are ultimately called to be LOVING and not "tolerant." Tolerance today could lead into an eternity without God in the future and that is not "love."
Now onto Mr. Bromley's point. He of course is just using "greed" as an example of a sin that the traditional, evangelical church is more accepting of, in fact almost completely accepting of because our personal greed helps fill those empty KFC buckets at the end of the pews. You can delete "greed" and substitute any of the following and probably a thousand more tolerable sins in place of it. Let's start with "gluttony," yes, let's get rid of all those overweight people - problem is you just lost 65% of your congregation, add "run of the mill heterosexual lust" and you lost another 20%, (actually a lot more than that) let's see, toss in "pride", there you would lose 80% of the pastoral staff and another 10% of the flock. We've only mentioned three sins and we are down to 5% of the flock left sitting in the near empty pews. Ummm let's see, well all those sins of "omission" would knock out at least another 4% and the 1% dealing with homosexuality would then be left alone in the back of the sanctuary. THIS is the point that Don is correctly making.
Ultimately, sin is separation from God. By any other name, it would be the same; greed, pride, gluttony, homosexuality, abortion, whatever it is that separates us from relationship with Him. The oracle has spoken, I rest my case....
God refers to himself as a 'he' in the scriptures, and this is an integral part of who 'He' is, just in the same way that, male or female, the body of believers are referred to in the feminine, as in Bride of Christ. As a spirit he is neither he or she, but He chooses to use He for a specific purpose and reason. That is why we refer to God as 'He' and not 'She' for that was his point and intention - to refer to God as she is incorrect as that does not represent God the way he has made it clear that he should be represented to us.
Your comment about "he certainly doesn't get mad at people who aren't hurting others by living their lives the way they choose" I don't believe is held up in scriptures. You could may that He doesn't 'get mad' at people (disputable - see below), but He definitely does get mad at sin, whether you believe it to be 'hurting others' or not (ultimately any selfishness ends up hurting others so that's a false premise to start with, and homosexuality is surely a selfishness). While His love towards us is unfailing and abounding, it doesn't mean that he ceaselessly extends grace (unmerited favour and mercy) to us in our sin - yes, He does extend grace to a point but ultimately wants us to come out of sin into truth and holiness and be like Him and He extends grace toward us so that we can see He is good, but he does correct and discipline us as His children, and for those that choose not to become His people while on the earth, He leaves to the condemnation that comes from sin - for sin brings about its own judgment. Ultimately he does judges us all though at Judgment Day after we're no longer of this world. Those who accepted Jesus Christ and repented of their sin, who turned from their evil ways and remained steadfast to the truth (it is not a case of 'once saved always saved') are judged to be spotless, covered by the Blood of Christ which was shed for the very purpose of providing salvation to those who accept God. Those that do not repent are not saved from their sin.
I'd also say that at times he has 'got mad' at people when they have disobeyed him, but that's a theological discussion for another day. Ananias and Sapphira were two people who felt the 'wrath of God' and they lived in the age of grace (New testament). You could say they weren't 'hurting anyone' either. Yet they died for their sin.
Homosexuality is a sexual sin, and like greed it is a 'major' sin because sins of sex and money cause much damage to oneself. Our lives, and often the lives of those around us, are progressively destroyed by these sins.
Please Juanita, if you honestly want to live at peace with God, ask Him to reveal himself and his truth to you. Read the scriptures which will call out to the truth that is within you. Don't fall prey to the belief that you can 'make it up as you go along to suit yourself'. Narrow is the way to salvation, but broad is the path that leads to death.
Money is not the root of all evil...the LOVE of money is.
Putting money or material things above all else is greed, and that has no correlation with what or how much one has. Greed is shared by the wealthy and the abject poor alike, like any other human faults and shortcomings.
Thanks Pastor John for the message. God bless.
Re: Bromley - I believe that you, and many others on this blog are not "getting" the real point of his objection. He is just using "greed" as one of a plethora of sins committed by each of us everyday. Why then would God single out this one sin (homosexuality) and show His objection by "personally" directing a tornado as a sign to the Lutheran church? Now, as a true believer, I know that God CAN do anything at anytime because He in fact is God, so I am not here to argue whether or not God actually did direct this tornado into the steeple of the church - the reality of course is that none of us can know this conclusively, this side of eternity.
Please allow me to pose Bromley's objection in the form of a question to you and others who have addressed his proposition as "greed" as an alternative to "homosexuality."
We all know that God's Word explicitly teaches that "gluttony" is a sin. In fact, in the early church (first century) gluttony was considered to be one of the "worst" sins because it was not loving or acceptable to fill your own belly whilst others around you were going hungry. So, I don't know where you worship (what church you attend) but my guess is that when it comes to the weight of your congregation it would reflect that of the greater American culture and about 60% of your brothers and sisters would be overweight, i.e. openly practicing gluttony. To make matters worse, when you have those church breakfast's, picnics, etc., etc. many of your overweight congregation are now actually practicing gluttony on the premise of the church grounds without confrontation or rebuke from either the pastoral staff or other members of the congregation. When that overweight member of the church reaches for that second donut and third cup of coffee in the greeting center whilst a homeless person is hungry down the street, wouldn't you agree that this is sin and I could "prove" this to you through quoting scripture as well? So then - why is God not splitting the steeple on your own church that not only allows gluttony, but most likely openly supports it by offering more food at church sponsored events to those who clearly do not need it whilst others are going hungry in your own community?
This is the type of reasoning that Bromley and other's are using to object to singling out specific "sins" such as homosexuality. If you are going to support Piper's position on the Lutheran/homosexuality issue - you MUST have a response to Bromley's line of reasoning re: the church's position on other sins such as gluttony, pride, greed, etc and why those sins actually ARE NOT seriously addressed in the church today.
What sayest thou?
But it doesn't change that fact that homosexuality is a sin.
None of you have ever met Christ, and his books have been rewritten a few times, diluting the holy message which everybody who makes it past the 12th grade understands.
Also, obviously none of you have a clue to how bad it feels on the inside to have your own government advise that you don't "deserve" to be equal or it isn't "the time" for you right now. It's bad enough that many individuals are left in the cold politically in this country, yet it's worse that you and your church think you're important enough to even have an opinion of any kind. Homosexuals don't care what you think or do, and unless you're engaging in your typical Christian "due diligence" trying to take more away from us, this is pretty much standard.
You, your pastor and any organization that feels they're in a position to discuss, decide or judge anything of this nature simply isn't in touch with reality. Don't like, understand, or feel comfortable with homosexuals...?, well, when I don't like something, I typically just leave it be. Food for thought.
Everything I do and see and say.
From a Biblical perspective, Piper's analysis is spot on. Piper says very plainly in his conclusion this act of God was a reminder to all of us (not just homosexuals) to turn from the approval of sin. His argument is not an "us and them" argument, but instead his argument is that we all face the wrath of God minus repentence, thoroughly Biblical.
A-Blogger
I don't know if the tornado was God's will or not. It's possible. Other's would say well then why aren't catastrophes hitting other sinful areas? Well maybe He's giving them more time. But whatever the case, we need to try and find a way to show others in sin we want to rescue them, not just point the finger. And how can we do that? How will the church show they care? How can you bring up homosexuality without offending gays? And you that are gay, is there no way to confront you without you accusing others of judging? Don't you make a judgment yourself by endorsing it? I'm against it for a few reasons, but mainly because AIDS killed some of my friends. Don't bother saying it's not a homosexual disease. I'm against heterosexual immorality also. But i yearn for the day when the presence of God dispells all of our strife if we humble ourselves (on both sides of the issue)
I am a Christian, I was borne and raised in Cuba under a communist dictatorship. Was brainwashed since childhood in believeing that there is no God. When I was 30 years old God called me, I was not looking for Christ or knew anything about Christ, or salvation, or sin. But one morning I heard this voice comanding me to go to Church. few months later 2 american missioners came to my church and brought some materials including a film called the Jesus Film and christ became the Master of my life, many christians love to call themselve Saints, I am not a Saint, I am a sinner who has repented of his sins and on may way to become a saint when I get to heaven. It is sad for me to see how brothers and sisters in Christ are offending each other about an issue that is spelled out in the Bible. Leviticus 18:22 Man shall not sleep with a man because is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. The bible also states to whom God forgave a lot, loves God a lot, to whom God foragev a little loves God a little.
What I see is a lack of backbone in many of you, don't criticize this or that because it may offend someone, well suck it up, it is better to offend someone that to offend God. One day we all are going to stand up in front of God and will give an account of what we did on this earth. And Christ said if you are ashame of me before me I WILL BE ASHAME OF YOU. Whom you rather offend man or God. If standing up for Christ and for what is right offends you, go and check yourself because you are not serving Christ but the devil. This is an issue that is not about hating homosexuals is about the sin of homosexuality that have permeated our society, our churches, our members, what is wrong with you, what happened with the Christian America, what happened with the values that this great nation was built upon"? Shame on you who called themselves Christians and are serving two masters, Shame on you for pointing the speck in thy brother's eyes and don't see the forest on your own eyes!!!! Repent and seek God's face, repent and ask for forgiveness before is too late and the Rapture takes place and you are left behind because you are in bed with the world, shame on you and again I say repent, Christ eyes are filled with tears because of your betrayal with the commodities and the sins of this world. Christ is not mocked and you are forgetting the first love. Stop criticizing the appointees of God they will have to give an account of their sins to Christ, even the Lord when was accussed by the rabbis and the Gihg priests didn't dare to disrespect them because they were appointed to that office by God. returned to your knees and repent and seek God's face and seek His will. The Day of the Lord is at hand and like the voice who cries in the desert make your path straight and search your hearts and repent.
God's word is sometimes hard to listen to... especially when He is seeking to convict us of our sin.
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. (James 4:4)
It sounds harsh, but behind it is the same love that is evident in Christ. Our Lord and Master is saying to us, "I love you so dearly that I will risk offending you... so that you might turn from your sin and live!"
We have to remember one thing that is very important, we as Christians not only hate sin, as God hates sin, but when we speak words from Scripture CONDEMNING sin in all its manifold ugliness, we are in effect acting in compliance with God's word. We are agreeing with God that homosexuality is wrong, that greed is wrong, that backbiting is wrong, so therefore, we in essence, also speak for God. God's words become OUR WORDS, OUR THOUGHTS, because we align our thinking, hopefully, with Scripture. We are told we have the mind of Christ. So for a Christian to tell someone that sin is wrong IS part of our calling, as we are to speak the words of God truthfully, we are to preach the whole word of God, aren't we? If it condemns, then good, if it edifies, then that’s good too.
I say if the Bible says it is what it is, we had better teach it just the way God intended it to be taught, speak Scripture as He spoke it, word for word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter and book by book. Let the Bible speak. Who cares if so and so is offended; better an offended soul who finds conviction, than a misinformed LOST soul who finds corruption.
Kudos to Piper!
Maybe the tornado just took a random path. We will never know.
However, I disagree that God needs a sign to make his points. His word makes the point of repentance very clear. If someone will not listen to God's word, they will not truly listen to a sign either. The Jews proved continually that no matter what sign he provided, they would not believe him.
Try to answer that question in 100 words or less.
Anyway, I did not mean to go off topic. Good article Pastor Piper!!!
You mean values such as exploiting and killing those indigenous to America? The value of purchasing and using slaves? The value of setting up a wealthy, ruling class to exploit those with less resources and political clout? Oh - those values our great nation was built upon...
Please set aside your right-leaning preconceived notions of the golden age of our forefathers and do some real research regarding early American history. Begin to read between the ambiguity of the lines: In God We Trust and One Nation Under God. Remember - the gods of most of our forefathers were the same as our gods today - money and power...
Face it people, yes homosexuality is a sin. And so are half of these posts, judging others. So was Piper's article. Stop judging others and focus only on your own.
Bunch of Pharisees in here. Sad. And we wonder why non-believers think we are hypocrites.
Bottom Line: Piper is using the result of a natural disaster to draw us closer to God and His word. Well done Mr. Piper and thank you for I would have missed the call of repentance in this circumstance had I relied on the assumption of mere coincidence.
For those who do not know God; this was just another meaningless storm in a meaningless life with no consequences.
And yet, you all have fallen into this trap, taking every word literally. There are so many paths to the Truth, and to think that Christianity is the only one belittles the wonder and miracle of life. There is a glorious interconnectedness of all living things, and yet you/we are focused on the gory details of a wonderful man on a cross, worried about where we'll go when we die rather than how we live in the Present!
Islam - homosexuality is sin (And in Sharia receive death penalty)
Budism - "In his (the Dalai Lama) view, oral, manual and anal sex (both homosexual and heterosexual) is not acceptable in Buddhism or for Buddhists, but society should tolerate gays and lesbians from a secular point of view." (In other words, homosexuality is wrong but the Dalai Lama is a man pleasing wuss who'd rather compromise his beliefs than take the heat.)
Judaism - Homosexuality is religiously wrong and the when Judaism is the state religions, homosexuals are to be put to death
Christians - warn that God will judge homosexuals if they don't repent.
So Christians, Jews, Muslems, and Buddhists would not allow "gay clergy" if they stay consistent with their teaching. (Which is the issue at hand.)
By the way, the Word of God is the perfect word of God. Most translations are made from the original language. (If it is not from the original language, it is called a paraphrase.) We have copies of the Bible from Africa, Asia, and Europe in several lanugages. We have old testaments that predate Jesus' arrival that translated the prophesies of Jesus just as the early church did. The chances that the message would distorted in the same way accross all of this culture and time is a ridiculous proposition. The central teachings and moral code of the Bible is clear. Repent of your rebellion to God and turn to Jesus.
Size is NEVER a signifier of faithfulness. After declaring that He was the bread of life, the 5000 people that Jesus fed left him saying, "This is a hard saying, who can listen to it?" The way of the cross is a lonely way. It is a way in which theology is not up for vote.
I pray for the ELCA's apostasy. I pray for repentance and a return to the clear Word of God.
Jesus never said anything on this subject except that the sin of Sodom was xenofobia (and not homosexuality).
The books of Moses also condemn homosexuality, but the also say that you should kill your parents or friends if they believe in another God.
Here in Sweden the wind almost destroyed an anti gay churches building (livets ord). I guess Jesus is pro gay here!! Because he is the commander of the winds!!
"...many christians love to call themselve Saints, I am not a Saint, I am a sinner who has repented of his sins and on may way to become a saint when I get to heaven."
The Apostle Paul referred to Christian in his letters as Saints. Having a relationship with Christ allows Christians to call themselves Saints because they are sanctified through the work of Jesus Christ. We have a new identity in Christ. While I might still sin, I am no longer seen as a sinner in Christ's eyes. I am a Saint who sins. I believe there is a difference in how you view yourself in this light.
As for good ole Pat Robertson... I definitely do not agree with most of what He teaches, but some things do not happen apart from prayer. Whether or not that happened in that occasion, who knows but God. Maybe, maybe not. For him to claim it was because of his own prayers would be ignorance because God may have had some other reason for sparing VA Beach and not Jersey. Either, way God is sovereign and and often uses evil (caused by sin and not God) for redemptive purposes. Redemption is the answer to the problem of evil and without redemption and the sovereignty of God, Christianity fails.
FOR SHAME.
It's times like these that I'm glad I'm Episcopalian, even if I am on the "conservative" side of the human sexuality issue.
"All true, or all false." I'm going with "all false" on this one. Is there any mention of micro-biological organisms or bacteria causing illness in the bible? Did the people from 200+ years ago think to talk about chemistry on a sub-atomic level or that the Earth is not just a sphere, but an imperfect, egg-shaped sphere? didn't think so...
"You cannot pick out the parts of the Bible you like to follow, plug your ears, and chant "la la la la" and ignore the parts that prick your heart."
Check yourself on this one. This is what all christians have been doing since it was made up. Have someone read these and tell me if you "plug your ears":
Deut. 28:56-57
II Kings 6:29
Lev. 20:27
Matt. 19:12
II Kings 5:27
Isaiah 3:16-17
I Cor. 14:34-35
I Tim. 2:11-12
II Sam. 12:11
I Cor. 1:27
I Cor. 1:19
II Sam. 13:1-22
I Sam. 6:19
Matt. 27:35
II Kings 21:6
Luke 23:29
Just a few examples of the barbaric things written by 1st century bigots in order to control the majority of society.
As you can tell, I and a lot of others have no use for your false 'guy in the sky' eliefs - especially they're used to dictate how others should live thier live based on your flimsy, 2000 yr old book.
God does not bring tornadoes, the actions, by this organization, brought the cursed tornado upon them. In John 10:10 It states that Satan came to kill, steal and destroy and Jesus came that you might have life and have it more abundantly.
When you can honestly say that you have lived a sinless day, then I will be completely fine with you passing judgment on these people.
Christians like this are what make the rest of the world turn from Christianity. Way to go.
Yes it should. It goes to the ability for the Right to justify, confuse, create fear and to be hypocritical. Just look at Ensign and Sanford. If what you say is true and sin is sin, why was there not a tornado or some other calamity caused by God when these two knuckle heads sinned against him? Not just once but many times.
And ohh by the way, suppose you all support the c-street house that these dips belong to. See you can’t have it both ways!!! Are any of you without sin? I have a stone for you to cast if you would like.
Dorian 1 week ago
So Mr. Bromley: 1) Are you saying that we should disregard the issue of Homosexuality, simply because the messenger has wealth? 2) Since you are quoting Luke 3:11, How many pairs of Clothes do YOU own?
Our Mighty Holy Lord lets these people continue to live because he is patient, and he wants nobody to perish but all to come to repentance. See 2 Peter 3:9. I do not know if they were in Jesus beforehand, or if they have come to Him subsequently. If they are not in Jesus when they do expire, then their fates are spelled out, and it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, where the consequences are ETERNAL.
This issue is not political and has nothing to do with liberal v. conservative in the political sense.
"All true, or all false." I'm going with "all false" on this one. Is there any mention of micro-biological organisms or bacteria causing illness in the bible? Did the people from 200+ years ago think to talk about chemistry on a sub-atomic level or that the Earth is not just a sphere, but an imperfect, egg-shaped sphere? didn't think so...
"You cannot pick out the parts of the Bible you like to follow, plug your ears, and chant "la la la la" and ignore the parts that prick your heart."
Check yourself on this one. This is what all christians have been doing since it was made up. Have someone read these and tell me if you "plug your ears":
Deut. 28:56-57
II Kings 6:29
Lev. 20:27
Matt. 19:12
II Kings 5:27
Isaiah 3:16-17
I Cor. 14:34-35
I Tim. 2:11-12
II Sam. 12:11
I Cor. 1:27
I Cor. 1:19
II Sam. 13:1-22
I Sam. 6:19
Matt. 27:35
II Kings 21:6
Luke 23:29
Just a few examples of the barbaric things written by 1st century bigots in order to control the majority of society.
As you can tell, I and a lot of others have no use for your false 'guy in the sky' eliefs - especially they're used to dictate how others should live thier live based on your flimsy, 2000 yr old book.
The Bible ios not proven false because it fails to comprehensively cite every point of molecular biology or astronomy. The Bible does not give false information regarding the shape of the Earth or of bacteria. To argue that the Bible is false because it lacks these descriptions is a logical fallacy: the false dilemma.
The citations you read are taken out of context, however, I will note that Deuteronomy 28:56-57 is a prophecy of what would happen if Israel turned away from God; II Kings 6:29 is ironically the fulfillment of that prophecy hundreds of years later. In I Cor. where Paul instructs women to be silent in church, he was not subjugating women, but was reacting to a situation where the women were speaking out in church and openly questioning the teacher -- he was attempting to maintain good order by telling these women to bring their questions to their husbands after the service was over.
You say that the Bible is "written by 1st century bigots in order to control the majority of society." Most of your citations predate the first century by over 1000 years. Further, to call the apostles, the authors inspired to write the New Testament, control freaks flies in the face of logic. All of them died with no real power, all but one were executed for their faith.
The Watergate conspiracy, which involved a few men trying to cover up a burglary, fell apart in months and took down the President, Attorney General, and several Presidential advisors in disgrace and ignominy. Yet, these 12 apostles, and countless others who witnessed the Risen Jesus, were *executed* rather than admit that they wrote "barbaric things...to control the majority of society."
The conclusion is these men wrote what God told them, because they saw positive proof of His Power. You may not like it, but God is God and He does what He wants.
"where Paul instructs women to be silent in church, he was not subjugating women, but was reacting to a situation where the women were speaking out in church and openly questioning the teacher...." This is absurd. How do 'you' know the exact intent of the author? And what's wrong with women - or anyone - speaking out and questioning authority? This is how progress is made. The misogynistic approach of much of the Bible clearly out dates it and makes a rational person question all of the content of said book as to it's relevance.
"...inspired to write the New Testament, control freaks flies in the face of logic. All of them died with no real power, all but one were executed for their faith." Well, these 'authors' may have passed with no real power, but where's the evidence? Plus, it's been the leader since all of this was written the use the words to control the weak - such as yourself.
"The conclusion is these men wrote what God told them, because they saw positive proof of His Power..." They *wrote* about the positive proof. That doesn't mean its accurate - especially after many years and countless re-translations. Also, they didn't possess and understanding of the world around them to think that the thunder/lightning, illnesses, meteors and the rising and setting of the Sun were anything other than under the control of a supernatural being. We all (hopefully) know better now.
Some of the other things you posted I wouldn't necessarily consider barbaric, but don't go with today's culture and social system. For instance, the passage from 1 Timothy 2 claims that Paul wouldn't allow women to speak or teach over men, but rather they were to be submissive and this goes against today's feminist movement. However, this doesn't mean that men are better than women or rule over them. This is the exact opposite. Scripture teaches that men and women are equal but that women are to be functionally subordinate. The man is to be the head of the household and to be the leader in such areas as provision, decision making, protection, etc. But don't get the wrong impression that this means that he does what he wants and the wife just has to deal with it. Rather the man is given an even harder task than submission to the other partner. The husband is to be submissive to Christ and love the wife as Christ loved the church and died for the church. In other words, the husband is to be selfless and sacrificial putting the wife's needs above his own. It is easy for the wife to submit to the husband if he is loving her in that manner because she trusts that he has her best interest at heart and is loving her.
Forgive those who appear to "pick and choose" Scriptures. No it isn't right and I agree that a lot of Christians do it quite often. I personally believe all of Scripture to be the inerrant word of God and don't back away from "tough" Scriptures but challenge myself to see the whole of the Bible and reconcile what may appear to be contradictory.
Honestly, I like you because of your honesty and would love to discuss so many things with you just to see how you would respond and what you believe. If you have any more questions concerning Christianity, the Bible, Philosophy, Science, etc. please ask. Or if you would like to hear my response concerning any of the other passages I would love to offer a response. Thanks for the post and the honesty and hopefully I will run across you here or on another forum some other time.
Some of it is this Romans 14 types of things. In Romans 14 talks about people who have strongly held opinions concerning issues that are not essential to the faith. They can be argued strongly, but we can agree to disagree as brothers and sisters under the same Lord and God, Jesus Christ.
Back to my original question. When one forms a theological system based on the whole of Scripture, I find it hard not to see a message of redemption. Sure there are moments of justice and wrath, but God must exercise these characteristics of His nature or He would cease to be God (i.e., justice against sin must be exercised or else God wouldn't be holy). But, when looked at as a whole, the Bible is a book of redemption. You have a perfect created world in the beginning. However, man soon disobeys God in an act of pride and eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and falls from perfection. What ensues through the remainder of the Bible is a message of grace as God looks to redeem man from his sinful state and bring him back into right standing with Him. He first begins by calling out one man and creating for Himself a holy nation whom He loves and pours out His blessings on inspite of their sinfulness. I mean He brings them out of slavery in Egypt only for them to later lose faith, complain, and worship a golden calf made from their own jewelry. In spite of their sin, he brings them into a land He has prepared for them and drives out their enemies. He creates the sacrificial system to provide satisfaction for their sins against His wrath. He builds them into a prosperous people and sends prophets to warn them against sin and bring them to repentance. However, they fail to listen to the warnings, kill the prophets, and God brings them into captivity in Babylon and Assyria to punish them for their sin (Remember God must be just. No truly good judge lets criminals just walk free.). He then brings them back into the land He had given them. Four hundred years later, the most profound, amazing, (put any word of awesomeness here) thing happens. God takes on flesh and walks the earth as a man. He lives a life of poverty, homelessness, and sinlessness walking around with 12 members of a motley crew. He hangs out with tax collectors, drunks, and prostitutes, and makes fun of the religious people who think they have it all figured out. So they get mad and had him killed. He carried a cross up a hill where they nailed him to it and left him to die in the most excruciating form of death the world may have ever known. However, he comes back from the dead after three days hangs around for a little while longer and then ascends into heaven. What we often fail to realize is that this is the greatest act of love, redemption and grace of all. God became man and took on the sins of man in order to redeem man and bring them back into fellowship with Him. God did this because He loved man and claims that any who have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of sins can be saved. He did this because He doesn't wish for any to perish and enter hell, but rather He longs for us to draw near to Him seeking forgiveness for our sin and repentance. And when this happens, things radically change. Take the early church for example who in the midst of persecution, from Roman Emperors who were trying to squash a revolution, rose up and lived radically different lives of love and compassion. I hope to live a life like that. A life like Jesus, hanging out with the poor and those that society has marginalized and calling all to repentance. Like Him, I don't really care for the religious people who feel that they have it all down. Cuz truth is, they don't and sin just like everyone else including myself who like Paul, would call myself the chief of sinners. I am not there yet, but putting the past behind me I press on towards the life that Christ has called me to. Hopefully I would see Jesus standing next to me. I don't expect him to be in white robes, but rather sackcloth with messy hair and a beard and scars on his hands and feet, where He hung on a cross and bled and died for me, that I might have faith and trust in His provision for my sins.
Forgive me if my reply is anything but gracious.
DON'T lay that Catholic "horrible death" stuff on me... it won't fly. I have never understood the glorification of gory, bloody death to try and make people glorify the Son out of pity. If you want to talk horrible death, think of the kidnapped child, looking into the eyes of the deranged maniac, being terrorized, tortured, brutalized, raped, and then executed. Now, that's a horrible death... and usually suffered alone, with nobody there, (let's hope that maybe they were comforted, knowing that Jesus was with them in "spirit.") At least Jesus could gaze down at his loving mother, his followers... at least Jesus KNEW that it was "only temporary," and that he'd be walking around with a halo three days later. At least Jesus had a chance to chat with his Father before the fateful moment came. All the whole "perfect lamb" thing needs is a spit and a roaring fire.
You see, I have a different perspective on this stuff. I will tell you a personal, all too true story.
I have 6 brothers and sisters. Of the 7 of us, my oldest sister and one of my younger brothers were both diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenics in their early 20's. My sister just turned 60. She has lived in half-way houses and assisted living for well over 30 years. 14 years ago, she jumped out of a 3rd story window and landed on a concrete parking lot. She was in ICU for 3 months, not expected to survive. My brother, 24 years ago, stabbed my mother to death while she was doing a crossword puzzle sitting at the kitchen table. The police crime-scene taped the house off for a week. I was the first one in, after the tape was removed. I spent the afternoon on my hands and knees washing my mother's dried blood off of the floor. The coroner said she valiantly tried to fight off her attacker, and that she died "probably with the 5th or 6th stab wound." So, as you might well imagine, I have a pretty tough time with the idea of what constitutes "a horrible death." Was Jesus death nasty? no doubt. Was it the worst possible death imaginable? Only if your imagination is severely limited by a lack of reality. Every one of Spartacus' men got the same thing Jesus got... they just didn't get credit for "doing it for you."
And, as for the sackcloth, greasy hair, unshaven face, (no doubt, the thonged sandals too!) if he comes back like that, he'll probably end up in a nursing home being fed lithium. Maybe you'll see him if you do pastoral visitations.
I am past the point of caring about "eternity" - what is that? Did you ever see the Twilight Zone episode where the guy died - he was in this absolutely blissful place, all white, gleaming, heavenly voices, his every possible need completely fulfilled. After a few weeks, he was getting antsy... he was getting bored stiff. He went to the "head angel" and mentioned that he thought Heaven wouldn't become boring... to which the angel replied: "Who said anything about this being HEAVEN?" - that Rod Serling certainly was a nut, wasn't he?!!
Here is my "take" on Christianity: Just like everything else man touches, it is tainted, twisted, used for personal glory and gain, and wrapped in (the sackcloth???) garments of self righteousness, judgment, condemnation, and selfishness. The words are all there, saturated in "love for fellow man", and "caring about the souls of the lost", etc. yes, they are all a veritable treasure-trove of wisdom and strength, but, where it used to be that one had to read Latin and Greek to get access, now one has to have an advanced degree in theology, we dissect every single sentence for profound meaning, (I love sermons on 3 or 4 words from a single verse - what a skill!!) and we get to witness the clamoring for name, fame, and the prestige of being known as a "person of God"... when in reality, we don't know squat. Who doesn't feel pridefully selfless when they deliver a meal on wheels? Who doesn't feel like a "good deed doer" as they pound nails at a Habitat house? Who doesn't feel like they are helping to "save a poor sinner's soul" when they give a very logically well thought-out step-by-step explanation of God's Magical Works? It is VANITY. I will tell you this - on this blog, EVERY TIME Piper sees a "kudos!, yea! rah, rah!" don't think for one second that he does not feel pride. He is NOT J.C., he is a mere mortal, just like you and I.
Trusting In Him
An interesting take on "sovereignty".
http://cbs11tv.com/local/lightning.strike.bedfo...
A 19-year old woman, 4 months pregnant, lost her baby due to being hit by lightning. I DARE YOU to correlate this to what you suggest above. The fact of the matter is, God could just as easily have hit Central Lutheran Church for no other reason that to expose the rampant judgment and hypocrisy that follows. As a matter of fact, what with the mysterious ways of the Father and all, that would probably be a more accurate assessment. And, I am sorry to say, Paul did not sit on the right hand of Jesus the Son, he was by his own admission a vile sinner, constantly dealing with his own demons, always looking for the comfort of Christ's forgiveness. But - let's say his sin was "less evil." Can we "quantify" sin? I think NOT. I'd like to know how codifying some statements of Paul is any different from the codifying of the Laws of the Old Testament. Isn't that what Jesus put an end to for all time? It is human nature to quantify, correlate, and assume. Why do you know what ways are God's ways? Why do you go there? Don't you see that you have three fingers pointed at yourself? Why don't you see the LOG that is clouding your eye from the speck of human sin and frailty?
- Genesis 19 condemns anal rape.
- Leviticus 18 & 20 condemns ritual same-sex behavior in Pagan temples.
-1 Corinthians 6 condemns men who sexually abuse boys.
- Romans 1 condemns heterosexuals going against their nature and engaging in same-sex behavior. By extension, homosexuals going against their nature by engaging in opposite-sex behavior would also be condemned.
- 1 Timothy condemns men who sexually abuse boys.
- Jude 1 condemns bestiality.
These Christians conclude that the Bible is silent on loving, committed same-sex sexual relationships, whether the people are lesbian, gay or bisexual. They seem equally as certain of their interpretation as do more conservative Christians of theirs.
2.) Presenting a list of statements in the form of a logical conclusion, with the intention of inferring any actual understanding of the will of the Creator, or even just that YOU understand it as such, well, I won't even comment to it... but it is reminiscent of Job's "come-to-Jesus" meeting with the Father, quote: ”Were you around when I laid
the foundation for the earth?” Were you the one who created the seas and the boundaries of land?” “Have you walked the dark depths of the ocean?” “Have you sent rain to water the earth? “Can you lead the constellations in the night sky in their proper seasons?” “Do you give the horse his strength?”
Do you know why a tornado hit downtown Minneapolis?
3.) Is not your commentary actually a form of vanity? That's the way it appears to me... I apologize for any offense, but you publicly post an argument intended to point out the "acceptance of sin" of a whole group of human beings... the poor lost ELCA... at least you included yourself in the indirect 3rd person... why stop with "us".... how about all of humanity? At least, how about the Western World? If you were in a foxhole and mortars were falling around you, and the person next to you in the foxhole was an openly gay Christian, would you ask them to shut up if they were begging God for deliverance?
Just for the record, I am a Lutheran, I am a church council member of an ELCA congregation that will probably end up leaving. I live in Texas, the sin-pointer-outer capitol of the USA. I cannot begin to express my profound difficulty with this - for lack of a better term - crap. I am not personally pleased with the decision... but, I am also a parent of a child who believes herself to be gay. What the he## did I do to deserve this? I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with the decision, I am having a rough go of it myself - but, your post on this is just over the top. Does my daughter deserve to be hit by lightning? Maybe it would be wise to try and keep your commentary where it belongs, if you are a pastor or "leader" of a Christian body... If I could offer advice - when it comes to trying to convince people of God's reasons and intentions - don't go there. YOU might be the one who fries in the end. And if you don't think this issue is going to come to Baptist Land sometime soon, keep kidding yourself and good luck. I would encourage everyone to fervently pray that Jesus show up NOW. I am personally reaching a Job-like state, and I don't like yelling at God, but I don't know what else to do.
I am not ELCA, but, like many mainline Protestant denominations, the denomination of which I am part has spent the better portion of three decades (give or take some years) with arguments related to human sexuality at the center of its public dialogue. After discussing this tornado, and subsequent dialogue about said tornado with brothers and sisters in Christ, let me throw this interpretation onto the table...
What if the tornado was, in fact, a "supernatural" act of God's judgment...but what if it was not specifically about the conclusions to which the ELCA came at their General Assembly?
What if, instead, the tornado - which, as I've heard, did the most physical damage in a lower-income neighborhood near Central Lutheran Church - was God pointing a finger saying, "No - here! Here is where I need you to be. These are the people with whom I want you to be in ministry. Here is where I want you to spend your time."
Conversations on human sexuality need to happen within the life of the Church; they are extremely important conversations. However, in the Gospels our Lord Jesus speaks far more regularly about ministry with the poor than he speaks about subjects related to sex.
So...what if the tornado was a sign from God that our time as the Church needs to be reordered and refocused - shifting some of it away from issues related to sex and toward issues related to the poor? What if?
Just a thought.
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!"
Isaiah 5:20
So this year, the ELCA leaders decide that homosexuality is not a sin. Next year, will it be incest? Child sexual abuse? Murder? Embezzlement from the church coffers?
Why can't the pastor have sexual relations with as many female parishioners as he cares to? As long as it's a "committed" relationship? Even if it's outside of marriage? Is the ELCA going to define "committed" relationship? Is it six months? Six weeks?
A slippery slope, friends. Seek God's guidance through the Word and prayer ...
Ali
this is the first of me reading this blog-and i can't get over not one person responding to what you and your family have been through. I simply want to say to you from one pissed off/hurting/Job-like person to another-I am so moved with compassion for you and i am sorry for all the shit that has been hurled your way in life. I have no answers for you not that you need them or even asked. you probably already know Psalm 139 where it talks about God being everywhere with us-can't go to the depths of the sea fast enough and even there he is before us, I just hope that someday that "presence" won't piss me off(where were you then when I was abused)-but instead give me a sense of HOME-place of safety(not even that all will be safe). about your daughter(i think that's who you mentioned "struggling'" with same-sex complexities) continue to love her-give her the home she so desperately longs for! the kind of home that probably you and i long for too.
From my closet I have been directed to pray for the sheep, the dear souls who want to trust their leaders but instincively they must know the new path and pasture is causing nervousness among the sheep. So my prayer has been "Lord cause the sheep to begin to cry out and make those nervous twitching motions that any good shepherd will diagnose as sense that danger lerks ahead. Sheep begin to do something different when frightened and if the shepherd is wanting to save his sheep he/she will take note, realize the danger and in a way repent for having place them in harms way. Lord cause the sheep to make a loud identifiable sound that will bring the shepherds back to a better reality and lead the gentle sheep to a safe environment where tragedies will be avoided and lives saved, so we can all follow the True Good Shepherd someday into the place He has prepared for the righteous.
I am a man saved out of the gay life and it is dangerously cruel to affirm a person in their sin and tell them that sanctification is not a required part of entering heaven. When those souls who reach their judgement are about to receive their just reward, we can take small comfort in knowing that the blood of their sin will be placed somewhat on the heads of the shepherds and leaders who affirmed them into damnation. Tolerance has become relativism which claims somehow that there are no absolutes, and they seem to be absolutely sure of it...somehow ? !!
If we don't cry out as a nation up to God, then our prayers will been unused for the cause of Christ and His Cross, which represents our full and complete salvation, and we will lament that we allowed the terrible day to come upon us as sudden birth-pangs. Lord have mercy, Christ have Mercy , Lord have Mercy !
I refuse to be driven back into the gay closet that I had come out of and all the rest of society is now being pushed into that crammed space, where none of us were ever intended to have our being.
Christ in me, the hope of glory ! (see Prov.13:12)
Jerry